Welcome to Breaking Banks, the number one global fintech radio show and podcast. I’m Brett King. And I’m Jason Henricks.

Every week since 2013, we explore the personalities, startups, innovators, and industry players driving disruption in financial services. From incumbents to unicorns and from cutting edge technology to the people using it to help create a more innovative, inclusive, and healthy financial future. I’m J.P. Nichols, and this is Breaking Banks.

Welcome back to Breaking Banks, the number one global fintech podcast and radio show. I am, of course, your host, Brett King. And today we are returning to the City of London, where we have a bit of a tradition with the show, which is we have been very thankful to have hosted previously the Lord Mayor of London on numerous occasions.

The latest Lord Mayor is Professor Michael Mainelli. Is that right, Michael? Yeah, Michael Mainelli. Definitely.

Great to be here, Brett. Welcome to the show. You are the 695th Lord Mayor.

Yes, that’s absolutely correct. The post Lord Mayor of the City of London. Yes.

Can I can I ask just a sort of introspective question is what is what is the weight of that feel like that there’s been 694 Lord Mayors of the City of London previously is like does that put pressure on you? Is there is there certain things that you find yourself looking to learn from those have held the office beforehand? Well, that’s that’s that’s a good question there. It’s both. It’s both a heavy responsibility and it’s also kind of liberating at the same time.

So the post began on 1189. That’s 835 years. I’m the 695th.

So you can work out there are 140 doubles and things, but these days you only get it for one year. So I guess the good thing is it’s a it’s a hard post to break. There’s almost nothing you can do that’s going to break the post.

It’s just going to embarrass you. So that’s that’s sort of one bit of responsibility. The second thing is you do want to do a good job.

So in fact, I took the year off before becoming Lord Mayor in November to make sure I got a whole bunch of projects up running and going going well when it comes to the future. I think that the popular phrase these days is what’s your legacy? The the the group actually work together as a team. There are 25 aldermen in the city.

And the Lord Mayor is just one of those 25. And so I can identify with reasonable certainty subject to election my next four successors. And we work together as a team of five to make sure some of the stuff that I’m doing will be kept going.

And they do talk to me about things that I can help them seed today so that when they come into office, it’s not sort of a surprise or we’ve gotten some of the groundwork out of the way. So it’s a combination of heavy responsibility and a lot of lightness. And I must say, it’s a it’s great fun.

I’m on day 100 and whatever it is, 110 and just absolutely thrilled and loving it. There is an obvious question, which is how does an American born? You know, British scientist, economist and accountant, how do you get appointed to this role? I mean, you’re obviously a dual citizen, are you? I’m a quadruple citizen. So I was born in America, but dad’s Italian and mom’s Irish.

And I moved to Britain about 45 years ago and I haven’t enjoyed that on the international. But the how do you get there? Well, the first thing just to assure everybody is you get elected. That’s it’s an elected post.

So it’s not by any means just granted to you. And in a sense, there are really five elections. You have to be an alderman.

You have to then at some point in your life have been a sheriff. So the alderman is elected from the workers and the residents. The sheriff is elected from the livery companies.

Then you have to pass a vote at the court of aldermen and being the city that this vote is the one that is neither official or anything, but is therefore probably the most important where the aldermen say, actually, they’d like you to go forward. And then there’s a final election, which we went through last September, where, again, the livery selects two of the eligible aldermen and then the court of aldermen select one of those two. So it’s a fairly rigorous electoral process.

The post has always been open. It’s unusual that we haven’t had an American born mayor. We’ve had a couple of Lord Mayors who spent a bit of time in the US when they were kids and came back.

But I am the first American born. Congratulations on that. Or we’re not the first foreigner.

We’ve had South Africans, people in Hong Kong, etc. So the old commonwealth element, in some sense, is probably the group that’s most enthusiastic. Who didn’t expect it is the Italian community in London.

Wow. Italian Lord Mayor. Now, you just were in the States.

You visited Boston and you shared with me prior to us kicking off the recording, you’d had a visit to Blue Origin. I find that interesting because your father worked on the Apollo project, apparently. Yes, that’s right.

In fact, that’s why we went back to America from Italy, was that he wanted to be in on the space program and he rose to be project manager for the Apollo capsule. And in fact, I’m calling you from Seattle, which is the tail end of my US trip. I fly back tonight.

And yeah, I’m a space junkie, a space kid. Yeah. And you studied aerospace in your early career or you did research at least at Harvard in the aerospace.

I mean, do you think of yourself as a rocket scientist? No, I mean, anybody who’s done rocket science, I’ll tell you, it’s actually pretty simple. It’s of the many. This compound in this compound and goes bang and put it in a compression chamber.

Exactly. Put a nozzle on it. A bit of parabolic trajectories and you’re done.

Right. No, it is a very complicated field. But no, I originally.

There’s a really good British sketch show that does this thing about a brain surgeon and rocket scientist. Have you seen that? No, it sounds fun. I’ll have to send it to you.

It’s really funny. But each out can be together. Yeah.

Yeah. So the guy who’s a brain surgeon is there and people are saying, what do you do? And, you know, I’m an accountant and he’s like, well, it’s not exactly brain surgery. And then the guy comes in and says, well, it’s not exactly rocket science, is it brain surgery? So it’s a good sketch.

But anyway, sorry, diversion. But I know also that in terms of your early work, obviously, you’ve got a rich academic background and so forth. But from that scientific perspective, you know, it’s a pretty exciting time.

You know, we are seeing the application of artificial intelligence in many different fields in terms of aerospace. We’ve got JWST and and so forth happening right now. You know, there’s a lot happening in the scientific field.

How do you bring that to the role of the Lord Mayor of the City of London? It’s not not difficult at all. If you want to sort of treat history in the same way we were treating, it’s not rocket science. The City of London is the home of science.

Yes. It adopted the new learning and the 15th century from the Dutch Gresham College sprang out in the 16th century, the Royal Society in the 17th. And just around the City of London, we’ve got 40 learned societies, 70 universities and 130 research institutes within two miles of Guildhall.

So I’m not talking about Oxbridge or anything. This is a dense cluster of 615,000 people, about a third of them work in science, engineering and technology, about 200,000, 8,000 of our 24,000 businesses are science, engineering and tech businesses. Then we got another third, which we’re famous for, which is finance and professional services.

But that’s really we’re famous for that really since the Big Bang in 86. Prior to that, we were much more famous as a science, engineering project place. And I’m just trying to level up is probably one way of looking at it.

But people around the world don’t really care about your inputs, your resources. They care what you can do for them. And so I’m spending this year positioning London as a as a solution center to global problems.

And what are global problems? Well, the world sat down and said, here are 17 sustainable development goals. So we’re covering all 17 sustainable development goals and we’re bringing in finance and we’re bringing in science and engineering and technology. So we’ve been applying that in areas like I have a mental health research program going with Oxford, actually, and the Wellcome Trust called Galanos.

We have an AI ethics project going, which is moving heavily into what AI standards need to be. They have a smart economy networks project, which is looking very much and we should be doing trading in the future. We’ve got a project on trying to remove space debris and we have a project on helping offices move to life sciences labs, as well as a sixth area, which the city always has, which is climate change.

We’ve been involved in climate change since 1953. When we passed the first Clean Air Act, we worked with America to create the carbon markets in 1996 and 97. So a big area there where you can see that it’s not just science and engineering and tech, here’s a technical solution.

It’s not just, you know, where’s the money? It’s a combination of how are we working to solve global problems? Yeah, I mean, there’s some very interesting advances in all of those areas. Obviously, we talk a lot on this show about fintech and what’s happening in the UK. You know, the Challenger banks there are now established brands.

They’re profitable in many cases. And, you know, of course, the fintech boom in London has created many jobs and brought in a ton of investment. And London was even more progressive as a financial centre in respect to the approach to fintech than, say, New York has been, you know, with the early pioneering of the fintech charter there and so forth.

And I think that’s, you know, boded well for London in terms of its reputation. I mean, these Challenger banks now are, you know, Monzo, Starling, Revolut, who’s heavily, obviously, UK focused. You know, these guys are household names in the fintech community now.

So we actually interviewed Boris Johnson before he was prime minister about fintech as a London hub. And it was really interesting, his comments on London, why it was attractive for this arena. But, you know, the last 10 years, you know, I think have shown London as a real powerhouse in respect to that.

And, of course, you’ve been referring to Gresham College. And, of course, we go back to Isaac Newton and, you know, a lot of the work that was done in the UK. But what is new scientific and R&D, you know, I guess, infrastructure look like in London enabling this? You talked about smart economies as an example.

But, you know, what does that foundational element in the city of London look like? Well, you’re right to comment on London. We’ve been booming within the city, certainly the UK as a whole is a slightly different story, but we’ve moved up from 525,000 people working in the city pre-Brexit eight years ago to 615,000. So that’s good.

Assets under management, which is probably the biggest thing I look at. London controls 15% of assets under management globally with 1% of the world’s population. So we’re doing well.

And what I’m trying to do is to break down the barriers between such as they are between finance, science and tech, and also academia. And I distinguish academia from science and tech and also trying to do it on a global connectivity scale, not a local. So here in Seattle, you know, seeing Nathan Mirvall, there’s Intellectual Ventures, University of Washington’s GIX, which is where they train people on how to be tech giants and not fintech, but just general technology.

So I believe that the future infrastructure is going to be one. Firstly, we have a lot of deep, detailed work in the plumbing to do. It’s actually hard to get data.

It’s still hard to do transactions of various forms. Contracting is hard. So we’ve got a lot there.

And I think London has a tremendous amount to contribute because we’re really the global center on that. So we’ve got, and just to give your readers a flavor, there’s a firm I’m involved with, no shares, by the way, Materium, M-A-T-E-R-E-U-M, run by a friend of mine, Vinay Gupta. What’s Vinay doing? Well, Vinay was actually the project manager for Ethereum in August 2015, working for them there to get it out of the ground.

But he’s moved over. He sees the future, is sorting out the legal side. Yes.

So, you know, we’ve been writing standardized contracts. Jeffrey Voss, the master of the roles, wrote a report just under three years ago, which pretty much said, actually, under common law, you can do all of this stuff. London’s the ideal place.

You don’t actually need the regulatory stuff. And Vinay has been working with me on trying to standardize contracts ranging from William Shatner’s memorabilia collection, which gives you a whole bunch of things on up to Stradivarius. What do you do when you trade a Strad? And this involves, believe it or not, a whole bunch of lawyers, but also false things like archivists.

When I said I’m going to sell you the Stradivarius, maybe you were after the string, but the string wasn’t specified. And so I take the string off when I give it to you. And you’re like, well, hang on a minute.

I bought that for the strings. I didn’t know that. I thought you’re buying the Strad, but it’s your call.

So a lot of deep plumbing work still needs to be done on the legal infrastructure. The boring accountants who lose out to the brain surgeons and rocket scientists have got a huge role to play there. Then I say that, you know, I say that and then you move up a level, which is the actual science itself.

And a lot of this is becoming finance is becoming embedded. I think Fintech exemplifies that where when I was setting up businesses 40 years ago, finance was this vertical thing we had to deal with. We had to go and convince a bank to let us do payments.

Who are doing this credit these days? It’s an API. You know, we don’t even put it on the whiteboard. It’s sort of the bottom corner.

Oh, and then we’ll get paid for it. I know there are other areas like insurance, reinsurance and mergers and acquisitions which are still face to face, but a lot of finance is becoming naturally embedded. And it’s also, of course, directing many of the decisions at the same time.

So just to give you your readers an example, I was in, sorry, listeners. I was in India a couple of weeks back. And, you know, they can give a beggar in the street a rupee.

Right. Digitally, yeah, that’s true. Yeah, I don’t think any Western bank can deal with that.

Yeah. So we got a long way to go in terms of, you know, where we want to be efficient. The same is true for Alipay.

You go to China and there’s, you know, there’s beggars on the street with QR codes. You know, it’s yeah. And they get the money, not the bank, you know.

Yes. Yeah. So I think there’s a lot that we should be sending some much higher standards.

But that also would transform the way that you deal with goods and services. You know, we still are in batch mode. You know, I go to the I go to the counter, I then check out.

Right. And I go through a whole checkout. So I know I know Amazon Fresh has been trying different things.

But broadly, the very nature of the batch transaction that we seem to feature dictates in many ways our thinking processes and the way that we design systems. And I believe a lot of that has to change. So, you know, let’s maybe do a bit of future gazing, you know.

Tell me, what do you think that, you know, let’s take the city of London in 20 years time. How is it a smart economy? You know, what does what does that mean for you, that term smart economy? Well, I’m actually putting on the tail end of that network, smart economy networks. It’s a I believe it’s the networking that matters.

It’s going to be automated, automated routing of many, many decisions and messages, a lot more of you getting what you need rather than being swamped. You know, I don’t know about you, but well, you get hundreds of emails a day. Why are they all coming to me? You know, why can’t my I already sort this out? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So you see a lot of that. I see a lot of opportunity identification, because if your eye is sorting it out, a lot of people think, oh, it’s going to it’s going to remove all the spam. It might.

But also what’s it going to do in terms of serendipity? Wow. I didn’t know that. I really changed my life.

This email that I might have missed that. Yeah, exactly. So it’s kind of both ways.

And I’m expecting to see if you basically a wider distribution curve of opportunities for people. I think we’re also, though, we’re going to see some tremendous change in the nature of the work that we do. I mean, a lot of people forget or seem to think generative AI is the only AI around.

In fact, the UI law was originally written without generative AI in mind. That’s sort of been tacked on. And I believe that you’re going to see people now that they’re unleashed.

And when I was trying to talk about data driven approaches to decision making in the past, I get blank looks from senior executives. They’ve obviously done a Volt FOSS on that in the last year and a half, where now they’re they’re kind of why can’t the data tell us what to do? And that’s that’s probably going too far. And we’re now starting to see some of the limitations of data driven in terms of bias.

And I don’t mean that just now. Yeah, I mean, we have to work out the alignment issue for sure. But, you know, I mean, I mean, we were at a very early stage of AI.

I think the whole smart economy thing or highly autonomous economies built on these technology, smart contracts and so forth that you talked about. There’s such huge opportunities in terms of improving resource allocation and making, you know, government more efficient and, you know, and making services much lower cost, you know, at a high rate of or high standard rather. You know, I think it’s particularly exciting.

But as an economist in these highly autonomous marketplaces that you’re talking about with a lot of this stuff automated, automated, how does that affect the way we think of economics? Because capitalism itself is built on the premise that wealth is distributed through the labor force. You know, that’s how you distribute wealth. You pay someone a wage.

But is tech, you know, how does techno unemployment change the basis of sort of basic supply and demand economics when it fits with with the labor force? Well, let’s start with one. I love your phrase, highly autonomous economies. I think that’s actually a good one.

I think capitalism is kind of a weird subject. Firstly, I’m a free markets guy or an open markets guy. You know, capitalism is a Marxist term, pejorative Marxist term.

Right. It’s almost like, you know, you’re a male chauvinist pig. I’m proud of it.

Somebody called me a male chauvinist pig. And I don’t believe particularly that capital should accrue more capital. You know, it needs to earn it.

I think there’s a lot of confusion in that space. So competition over time should diffuse that. However, it’s not just labor.

So your brainpower, you say, is labor. But I might argue if you’ve gone up a particular route, you’ve got some rare intellectual resource, then, you know, you’ll get paid for it. And that that itself becomes IP.

The blend between capital and labor is is the distinction can be sort of artificial at points. So I’m very into competitive markets diffusing some of that away. However, you can see in a highly autonomous area a few problems.

So let’s let’s go through a couple of quick ones. One one would be take smart contracts. What’s that going to do to liquidity? Because, you know, so if everything’s bad, that’s true.

Yeah. So imagine that you had a I’ve often thought about taxation because, you know, the taxation implications are fairly obvious. But yeah, the liquidity problem.

Yeah, that you make a good point. Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, there’s a popular thing that every time you go to a restaurant, you pay 50 percent up front, it becomes a meme. Everybody’s doing it. And suddenly it’s not money anymore because it’s money.

It has to be fungible. And this money is now tied distinctly to the contract. So is it wholly money? Is it not money or is it half money? So you can see that we then move on to, of course, the nature of the workforce.

I’ve long been a fan of, you know, UBI, universal beneficial incomes of various forms. And I’m in good company. John Maynard Keynes was also, of course, a believer in, you know, 90 years ago that we should be working less.

And we haven’t seen that, have we? We’ve seen almost everybody’s working harder. So what are we going to do in that space? The taxation has become inordinately complicated. I gave testimony.

It was 2015 or 16 in the House of Lords where I said that the real danger with CBDC is that you can change the tax system in an afternoon. And the example I gave was, let’s imagine everybody hates London and they come up with a tax that I call it the Nelson’s column tax. The closer you get to Trafalgar Square, the closer the tax gets to 100 percent.

Ninety nine point nine. If you’re out in the Outer Hebrides, it’s not point one percent. You say, and you could do that in an afternoon.

So are we going to go to something more like land value capture, which economists have long wanted to do, which would be a much more simple framework, better for the environment, reduces human sprawl. That’s interesting. Hong Kong was probably the best example of land value capturing.

People forget how green Hong Kong is, not the central business. But I lived in Hong Kong for seven years and I’d always take friends down to Stanley Market, which was on the on the south side of the island for that very reason, is that it’s like this tropical paradise down there, you know, and it’s like, you know, really challenges your view of what Hong Kong is, but, you know, what they did, like with the property market and so forth there, it’s pretty insane. Actually, you know, you talked about UBI.

You know that Martin Luther King was a believer in guaranteed income. So this goes back a long way. You know, we’ve been talking about this for a while, but it sort of feels like an effort to sort of keep capitalism going, a bit, keep consumption going a bit longer past its sort of, you know, expiry date, when we have sort of highly autonomous, you know, economies that are generating so much wealth that, you know, this is where we get the concept of sort of post-scarcity economics and so forth.

But I know this gets into some some pretty wild theory in terms of where this is going. But I think the key element here is that AI itself and, of course, climate are really going to challenge the way we think about organizing principles of government and society and value exchange systems and so forth. And you’ve looked at the climate problem, you know, but that this is not a problem that there are elements of this that can be solved with the free market.

But at the same time, we’re going to need much greater consensus building to have sort of, you know, action that’s taken across the planet. And it could be, you know, very expensive. I mean, sort of wartime effort type stuff.

If you believe some of the estimates, particularly on just simple things like responding to the, you know, the growing eco-refugee crisis in the 2040s and so forth. Where do you sit on that in terms of that balance between the free market and, you know, what we need to do in terms of sort of broader action in respect to climate and AI, really, on a global basis? Well, I’m an extraordinary long term environmentalist doing research in the 70s, setting up Rural Conservation Monitoring Center in the early 80s, and on and on and on it goes. But when it comes to the free market, I think we haven’t given the free market enough of a run at it.

I was one of the people who helped to create the carbon markets in London in the late 90s and the launch, really, of the EU ETS in April 2005. And we’ve, unbeknownst to people, currently, the carbon markets cover about 23% of global emissions. And it’s 950 billion, so just under a trillion every year.

And I believe we should be moving that 23% on up quite, quite heavily. However, you’re right, it’s going to cost. But I think we’re past the awareness stage.

I don’t know if anybody is not aware. I don’t think people have quite worked out the cost. We’re talking new energy infrastructure and new transportation infrastructure, new houses, new resilience.

Yeah, yeah. Moving people, large, large, like hundreds of millions of people, food security issues and so forth. It’s a big, it’s a big problem.

It’s several thousand pounds or dollars per person per year for the next 30 years or so. So that’s a political thing. Do we want to do it? But we can do it through markets, actually, I believe, for the most part.

And one of the things that has been lacking in this has been consistency of government policy, because we’re we’re looking at people making these investments over 25 to 30 years. And government policy reserves the right to change on a dime tomorrow morning, of course, from the latest poll or article that they thought was bad. So I’m particularly proud of something I had a hand in two years ago.

The government of Chile issued a bond that I helped design, which pays more interest as they fail to meet their targets. So it’s like an inflationary bond where, you know, the inflation, if inflation goes up, the interest goes up and therefore, you know, the government’s committed to getting rid of inflation. So now, you know, the Chilean government is committed to getting rid of climate stuff that was copied, by the way, by Uruguay.

So I’m particularly proud. So I think there’s a lot more we can do in finance. Move that 23 percent on up to about 80.

And then we do need to make the voluntary carbon sequestration markets work. Yes, that’s just on climate change. Then we move on to other areas that we would like to improve our planet.

So that’s one of the 17 SDGs. I hope that London is at the core of, but there’s 16 others we got to talk about, too. Yeah, well, look, we’ve only got a few minutes left, Professor, if I can call you that.

Michael, but I did want to talk about it. Let’s finish on space. Oh, yeah.

One of the things that you’re interested in is not only working and living in space and the technology that potentially will get us there, but you’re also looking at the problem of increasing space junk. Yes. You know, and so, I mean, you know, theoretically, if it gets cheap enough for us to to get into low earth orbit, we should be able to extract, you know, a lot of those things from from low earth orbit and so forth.

But, you know, what’s where’s the technology for that? And what’s your role in in that problem specifically? Well, to give give an idea of the scale of the problem, we can see about 35,000 pieces that are greater than 10 centimeters because that’s what radar lets us do. The argument, though, is there’s about one to one point three million pieces of junk out there. Why do you care? Well, actually, go back to the sustainable development goals.

40 percent can’t be met without space. You know, GPS, telemetry, et cetera. Also, you get trigger happy if you can’t see what the neighbors are up to.

But finally, what’s the point in launching all this stuff if it’s just going to get shredded? So you’re not going to put the assets up there to get destroyed. So we want to fix the problem. Technologically, there’s been one Japanese British company by the name of Astroscale has actually gone up and proven that you could retrieve some of the stuff, but it’s not cheap.

You’re probably talking about six to eight million dollars per piece of junk you try and get down. You can do a few in a row or something. So it’s not not inexpensive.

There are other techniques, harpoons, foams, nets, lasers, pushing them out of orbit, but who’s going to pay for it? And so a proposal I made having looked at the situation a while back and then writing a paper last year and I’m pushing this as part of the mayoralty has been we ought to be thinking about making space debris, you know, removal insurance bonds, a condition of launch. So these would be bonds that you paid on launch that you would get it down, which is very similar to what goes on in the maritime sector. If you put an oil rig up, you actually have to put a surety bond that even if you go bust or whatever, the rig will be taken down.

There’s money. There’s money in reserve to do that. The mining sector does that with mining reclamation bonds of various forms.

So the idea is we ought to be making that a condition of launch that will stop the debris problem growing. And it’d be a longer conversation about how we could actually make the debris problem less. But we would really like to stop it from growing.

And that’s what I’ve been working on. Fantastic. Well, it’s an interesting point to finish on.

But we we’re very we’re very honoured that you’ve come on the show today and we’ve enjoyed having you on. It’s been a very interesting conversation. I feel like we could get into some some more meat and detail here, but we’ve run out of time.

But all the best with your your finish of your US tour. Just quickly, what else do you hope to accomplish in your stint as Lord Mayor of the City of London? The biggest thing I want is that people around the world recognise when they face some of these global problems, it’d be worth going up to London and kicking it around. So even if you’re trying to do a Patagonian wind farm project for Patagonians done by Patagonia, let’s spend a week or two in London.

We’ll learn something there that will help us. And that’s all we want. Fantastic.

Well, Michael Maynelli, the 695th Lord Mayor of the City of London. Thanks for joining us on Breaking Banks and the Futurists. Pleased to be here.

Thank you, Brett. Fantastic. All right.

Let’s have a quick break. We’ll be right back. Before we finish out this week’s show, I wanted to draw your attention to a new podcast that we’ve recently been involved in.

It’s called Beyond Banking by CBD Talks. It’s a collaborative effort from the Commercial Bank of Dubai and the team at Breaking Banks, for which I’m honoured to play the hosting role. There are currently 10 episodes available.

We welcome some phenomenal guests, including some unicorns, some founders of the fintech sector and some notable seniors from the banking industry from all around the world. We’ve delved into a variety of interesting topics relevant for all from climate and sustainability, AI’s impact on business, generative AI generally, the role of regtech, the future of banking, the future of money, the impact of bank actions on the economy. And we’ve also had the opportunity to spotlight leaders shaping the industry from the UAE.

Specifically, we spoke to Her Excellency Raja Al-Mazuri, who was the founder of the fintech initiative at DIFC. We also spoke to Frank Bisignano, the CEO of Fiserv, and got into how Fiserv is adapting to these changes around digital. We’ve really covered it all.

Stay tuned for more of those episodes. And please don’t hesitate to let us know if there’s something you would like us to focus on of the next season of Beyond Banking or indeed for Breaking Banks. It’s a really interesting series.

I’ve enjoyed being involved in it. To stay current or learn about what’s happening in Dubai and the UAE, of course, other regions around the world, download an episode today and listen to Beyond Banking by CBD Talks. It’s available on Amazon, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, on Google Play or the Commercial Bank of Dubai website.

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