HOST: Matteo Rizzi

GUEST: Serena Torrielli, CEO & Founder, WealthHype

How Has Revolut Become a Top Bank in Italy?

HOST (Matteo Rizzi):
Serena, the last time we met in Milan, Revolut had just announced 4 million Italian users. That effectively makes them the fifth-largest bank in the country. How is this landing inside the Italian ecosystem?

GUEST (Serena Torrielli):
It’s stunning. Revolut has 45 million global clients, and Italy is one of their fastest-growing markets. To put it in context:

• Fineco, a well-established digital bank, has 1.6 million customers.
  
• Revolut reached 4 million in a fraction of the time.
  
• Italians are embracing digital money management, investments, insurance, robo-advice, more rapidly than expected.
  

QUOTE:

“Revolut succeeded where others failed, making money management smooth, personalized, and actually enjoyable.”

Is Revolut Entering Private Banking?

HOST:
Revolut is now hiring a Product Manager for Private Banking. Not something anyone would’ve predicted years ago.

GUEST:
Absolutely. It’s a smart move because:

• A new generation is about to inherit significant wealth.
  
• This cohort is digitally native and open to managing wealth through platforms like Revolut.
  
• Revolut now has an Italian IBAN, giving them credibility similar to incumbents.
  

Bullet Highlights:

• Private banking is no longer tied to physical branches.
  
• Trust is shifting from legacy institutions to digital experience.
  
• Young Italians increasingly rely on ChatGPT-style tools to discuss financial decisions.
  

What’s Driving the Rise of Gold and Bitcoin Together?

HOST:
It seems ironic that Bitcoin and gold, opposites in many ways, are both up ~20% this year.

GUEST:
It’s an unusual duality:

• Gold = fear asset (5,000-year safe haven)
  
• Bitcoin = hope asset (tech-driven, decentralized, aspirational)
  

People are treating both as protection against:

• Debt growth
  
• Market distrust
  
• Currency instability
  
• “Traditional finance fatigue”
  

QUOTE:

“Investors now buy gold and Bitcoin for the same reason, distrust of the traditional financial system.”

But correlations are broken. Neither behaves as a perfect hedge.

Is Gold for Beginners and Bitcoin for the Young?

HOST:
Is gold more for less-educated investors and Bitcoin for sophisticated ones?

GUEST:
Not exactly.

• Both assets are increasingly seen as diversification tools.
  
• Younger investors resonate with the technology and decentralization of Bitcoin.
  
• Older investors gravitate toward the familiarity of gold.
  

Key insight:

Diversification, not ideology, is driving both assets.

How AI Is Transforming Wealth Management

HOST:
You’re deep in wealth management. AI is shifting from reactive to predictive portfolio management. How do you see this evolving?

GUEST:
AI is absolutely transformative, if used correctly.
Two forces are colliding:

• Heavy regulation (Retail Investment Strategy, DORA, IAS)
  
• AI’s black-box perception
  

But AI can increase transparency when designed properly.

QUOTE:

“AI isn’t a gadget. It’s a way to embed transparency and compliance by design.”

AI’s real value:

• Real-time risk management
  
• Faster rebalancing
  
• Improved suitability assessment
  
• Enhanced regulatory reporting
  
• Augmenting, not replacing, advisors
  

Can AI Replace Human Financial Advisors?

GUEST:
No. AI supports, accelerates, and strengthens the advisor’s work, but:

• Investment decisions evolve over time
  
• Human biases matter
  
• Context changes
  
• AI often uses outdated or irrelevant data
  

AI will be:

• The calculator behind the scenes
  
• Not the final decision-maker
  

What’s the Future of Stablecoins, Cross-Border Payments, and the Money Movement?

HOST:
We’re seeing a new battle: Visa & Mastercard versus Coinbase stablecoin rails. Who wins?

GUEST:
Likely a hybrid model.

• Crypto rails bring speed & efficiency.
  
• Payment giants bring trust & compliance.
  

In Europe, consumers don’t feel the pain points of slow transfers, but in Africa and emerging markets, stablecoins provide real utility.

QUOTE:

“The winner will be whoever masters both trust and efficiency.”

How Geopolitics Is Shaping Investment Behavior

HOST:
Markets are more affected by geopolitical events than ever before. True?

GUEST:
It feels that way, but markets often ignore geopolitics unless it hits debt, credit, or regulation.
She believes:

• Corrections will happen
  
• Long-term markets remain resilient
  
• Innovation in energy, biotech, and AI drives future growth
  

QUOTE:

“Despite the noise, there’s no structural reason to believe markets stop growing.”

Is AI Funding a Bubble? Are We Just Adding Zeros?

HOST:
Valuations in AI feel inflated. Are we in a bubble?

GUEST:
AI is no longer a startup sector, it’s an ecosystem of giants.

• OpenAI + Microsoft
  
• Nvidia + global chip dominance
  
• Clustered ecosystems in the U.S. and China
  

New entrants face enormous barriers.
Future opportunity lies in:

• Vertical AI applications
  
• Energy infrastructure
  
• Specialized use cases
  

Not in building the “next ChatGPT.”

Closing Thoughts

GUEST:
Innovation cycles will continue. Markets will fluctuate. But:

• Human progress,
  
• Massive liquidity, and
  
• Transformative sectors like AI, biotech, and energy
  

…will keep pushing financial markets forward.

HOST:
That’s Episode 619, thank you, Serena!

Raw Transcript:

Welcome to Breaking Banks, the number one global fintech radio show and podcast. I’m Brett King. And I’m Jason Henricks.

Every week since 2013, we explore the personalities, startups, innovators, and industry players driving disruption in financial services. From incumbents to unicorns, and from cutting edge technology to the people using it to help create a more innovative, inclusive, and healthy financial future. I’m J.P. Nichols, and this is Breaking Banks.

Today, we turn the show over to our friends at Breaking Banks Europe as we celebrate their sixth anniversary. What began as a podcast experiment has grown to over 280 episodes, more than 570 guests, thousands of listeners from every corner of the world, and countless debates. Over the past six years, the show has shaped conversations around open banking, fintech, DeFi, payments, digital innovation, and every trend and highlight you can think of.

Featured founders, heads of state, college students, academics, executives, regulators, dreamers, disruptors, and troublemakers. It’s connected Europe with the Middle East, Africa, Asia, Latin America, and beyond, and it’s helped spotlight voices that deserve to be heard. Today, we’re celebrating with a special throwback episode.

Host Matteo Rizzi welcomes back Serena Torrielli, CEO and founder of WealthHype, who first joined the show back in Episode 3. In this new conversation, Matteo and Serena dive into Revolut’s explosive growth in Italy, the future of private banking, and how AI, Bitcoin, and gold are reshaping investing. They also explore regulations, stablecoins, and global market shifts, with Serena sharing her optimistic view on innovation in AI, energy, and biotech as drivers of a next financial revolution. Hey guys, welcome back to Breaking Banks Europe, episode number 270.

My name is Matteo Rizzi, the executive producer of the show, and I’m here with my good friend Serena Torrielli, CEO and founder of WealthHype. Serena, welcome back. Thank you very much.

Good morning, everybody, and thank you for having me. This is going to be a heavy Italian accent episode, as you probably already figured from this couple of words. Serena, I want to start with a short convo that we had, both of us, the last time we met in Milan, and it was about the fact that Revolut just announced that 4 million clients in Italy.

We talked about this last month during our news with Don Gibson, but I want this to be commented by someone who lives in the Italian ecosystem. You were saying, well, Revolut is literally playing another game here, and all of a sudden, nobody cared, and they become the fifth bank in the country, right? Yeah, I think that in general, the trajectory of Revolut has been impressive, and in Italy, it has been particularly impressive, because they declared 45 million clients worldwide, and the fact that 4 million are in Italy is incredible, particularly if you think that a very established digital player, Fineco, has 1.6 million. So I think these numbers are stunning, and also the type of growth is stunning.

I think Italy is one of the fastest countries for growth, and particularly in areas like investments, or, yeah, robo-advisor, insurance, so all the other stuff. And we used to think about Revolut like a challenger bank, but I think they succeeded where nobody else has succeeded in making money management a completely different experience, very smooth, personalized. It’s something that all the others have failed, and I think they got it right.

Serena, for the few ones who don’t know your background, you are a former investment banker, worked for two very big American, actually, banks here in Europe as an investment banker. So your background is really about wealth management. And as a tail sort of topic to this Revolut thing, we haven’t talked about, because I just discovered it before recording this episode, Revolut is actually hiring a product manager for private banking.

Can you imagine? It’s actually super interesting how they are about to cover, I mean, probably private banking was, associating Revolut and private banking was actually not immediate, right? Because so far, most people use Revolut as the commodity card, right? So the card with a couple of thousand euros to pay the grocery shopping, do very basic. But right now, I think they are extending their offer. Do you see them having a role in the private banking space as well? Absolutely, because that’s the way incumbents they sit in their comfort zone.

But I think the world has changed. The use of, for example, the use of Shell GPT in Italy is very, very high. And many people are already relying on digital tools and artificial intelligence for talking about their money, even too much, I would say.

But anyway, and the part that is growing the most in Italy is the part related to investment. So I think also, you know, we always say that the young, you know, they have no money, but first of all, in the next few years, you are going to have this huge money transition, like passage of wealth from, you know, the old generation to us to the 50 something generation. And this generation, this cohort is people that are digitally savvy and I think are ready to use someone like Revolut.

Also because they changed, they used to have a lead to a banking code. Now they have an Italian one, which makes a difference. So they get the same guarantee as all the other banks.

So I think that the banking wrap is interesting. That’s why also, I think Scalable has made a very smart move by requesting a banking license, because I think the banking wrap is a different type of feeling in the perception of people compared to, you know, an advisor, for example, a bank is a bank. So the level of, you know, regulation and the expectation of the customer changes.

So I think maybe right now it’s mostly like, but it’s not the app anymore. It’s not the app anymore. They’re pushing a lot also on a service like trading online.

The young guys are looking to trade the crypto asset and they offer convenience, they offer smart features. So if I were an incumbent, I would be scared. I agree with you.

I agree with you. Actually, as a segue topic to this one, have you seen that Bitcoin and crypto, of course, is super trendy, even if it crashed badly? I mean, I know that you don’t have a huge exposure on crypto and neither do I. So that’s why we probably sleep better at night in this type of circumstances. But also, gold is becoming, you know, a sort of a way to protect your assets in differentiating your investment.

How do you, and they both curiously have like maybe 20% upside this year, curiously enough, even if I just saw a graphic that whenever Bitcoin crashes, gold spikes and vice versa for some more or less, but that’s what basic demagogic graphics look like. What’s your take on this as an expert? I think this is a very fascinating and interesting situation because on one side, you have gold that is by definition, the fear asset. It has a 5,000 year history as a, you know, as a reserve asset.

And on the other side, you have Bitcoin, which is traditionally the hope asset. So something very new and based on coding and people are treating in their mind, they’re treating them a little bit in the same way. They are both an edge for their distrust in the fear of money, in traditional finance, in the growth of debt.

And that’s very, very strange. Also, Bitcoin, I don’t have any exposure to Bitcoin actually, but anyway, Bitcoin is becoming to behave more and more like a traditional asset, because I think the, which is, I’m in favor of it, the fact that it has been wrapped into ETFs or, you know, regulated vehicles that can give us to normal investor, which is good in order to avoid problems, has also changed the behavior of this asset class. So investors tend to buy both as an edge against, you know, the traditional financial asset.

But at the same time, you serve it quite often, all the correlation in the market are broken. So none of them is really behaving like a true edge. So I don’t know what’s the edge, not to have any money probably.

You know, it’s very strange that the gold is not a risk off anymore. When the market goes up, gold goes up. Bitcoin is more, you know, difficult to understand, but, you know, it’s something that is very interesting to watch.

And I think it will continue to change along the path that the exposure to Bitcoin grows. Do you think that gold, because, you know, Bitcoin and crypto, you know, we talk a lot about it, since, you know, you talk a lot with the investor, or at least you see a lot of simply by the nature of wealth type, the tool that you’re producing, that you’re managing, right? So it helps to smartly allocate a portfolio of investments for, for example, you know, an insurance group who wants to add the asset manager to their products, for example, right? So you’re very familiar with investor profiles, right? Investor meaning mass affluent investor profiles. Do you think that gold is more of an asset for less educated people, because everyone understands, you know, that gold is gold, so you should buy it and keep it, and eventually, you know, get some of your, you know, rings and laces, melt and put it in a bank? Or is more, let’s say, for a sophisticated investor that use this as part of their portfolio? What do you think is the profile of the gold investors that suits the most? I think it’s a little bit both.

Gold is a strange asset, it’s not, it’s more a currency rather than an actual asset. Both, you know, digital assets and gold are interesting in terms of diversification, even more, as I was saying, the correlations are a little bit breaking. So I think on our side, as we are, you know, including illiquid assets like private markets, we are also working on including digital assets, because they represent a reality.

So in a portfolio, diversification is, is, and will always be a need for any type of investor. Also gold is included for diversification purpose. You’re probably gold is easier to understand, even though there’s no rational, because we, you know, the movement in price of gold should be driven by offer and demand.

And now for both, for both assets, the dynamics are pure speculation. There’s no really no link with any different type of dynamics. And on one side, you know, the young are very much keen, very keen on Bitcoin because they like the technology side, the coding side, and this idea, which I don’t know if it’s true anymore, or, you know, moving away from centralized authorities from, you know, it’s a kind of form of rebellion or elitism.

And gold is more, you know, the middle age or over 60 type of investor is probably more inclined to get gold. But apart from that, the funny thing is that the two things are mixing. Let’s go on the completely other side.

And, you know, as, as a professional in the, in the asset management, you’re experiencing every day how AI is transforming the way investments are proposed to people, typically from reactive to predictive. So today you, you know, AI is able to manage and to like to manage the assets in a portfolio in a much faster and more dynamic way. So I personally will end up maybe accusing my private banker that they can’t go any way better than the market because they only follow, right? So they adjust after that, you know, some of the announcements of the market have been, have been made.

On the other side, I’m not sure that the regulators are ready for all this AI powered wealth management. You dealing with this every day, how do you see this evolving? This is a very, you know, in the wealth management, which is the market I’m working in, is a very interesting type of challenge. On one side, particularly in Europe, we have a ton of new regulation, the retail investment strategy on one side, but also the DORA and IIS on the other, which are all demanding for more transparency.

And on the other side, you have this explosion of AI, which is what we use and which has really the potential to rapidly change the sector. I will make an example. I think apparently there is a natural clash, you know, on one side more regulation and on the other AI, which is, tend to be a black box.

So most of this is very little, very difficult to understand. I think this can have two different types of effects. On one side, people can be, the players can be scared and they can, you know, AI has the potential to completely change the sector of wealth management and rethink advice, but in terms of process, in terms of methodology.

So if people are scared by the regulation, they take, like most are doing, AI like, you know, a gadget, you know, a chatbot or just a portfolio screener, which is not, you know, it’s a very limited and not the most interesting application of AI. While on the other side, it can, with the use of AI and this, what we are doing, you can, you know, you can use AI to embed the compliance by design. We are, it’s very helpful.

Recently, my, my partner has just published a paper on how AI can help to, to build a measurable framework for the indicators requested by the retail investment strategy. And the application is, here is one of, you know, what is called the explicable AI, where, you know, we use the power of calculation to add the transparency, not to, you know, to, to hide behind it. So it’s a very, you know, it’s a very interesting situation and what can look as an apparent contrast can be a synergy in a sense.

Interesting. And actually I believe, I believe that, you know, the, the way we profile, because there are two aspects, right? So there is one at, on the, on the investment level and the other on the profiling level. So AI can help make the distribution of a portfolio more reactive, better, more differentiated.

And also I can say, I, investor can say, listen, I like whatever I could tell technically a prompt, Hey, I want to invest in sustainability, green energy in emerging markets. And basically I can do the rest. On the other hand is, okay, which type, how can AI assess the risk that I am able to take? And I’m not going to scream against someone that whatever machine has proposed me was not, you know, adapted to the type of risk that I was willing to take.

Is this still a gray area or do you think that the regulator has still work to do on this? I think, you know, yes, but it’s also dependent on the type of use that you are looking for. So you, there was a nice, you know, there was a nice article, I think on the New York times a few weeks ago, but also in other papers saying that about half of the suggestion given by chatGPT on investment were wrong, which is, which makes sense because first of all, when you talk with management or planning and you’re talking about profile, your risk profile characteristic, you know, if you ask chatGPT, it tends to be, this thing tend to be like a spot image of your situation. So I want to buy diversifying assets compared to, you know, US tech stocks.

Okay. That’s a, I am this age, I have this amount of money, blah, blah, blah. Fine.

But that’s today, you know, while advice is financial advice is something that goes along over time, your situation changes, the market changes. Also with chatGPT, you need to be, you know, smart about verifying the timeliness of the information because it tends to pick old stuff and you don’t realize it. So I think the type of relationship where I see AI and financial advisors is that AI is a powerful tool that can, you know, augment an advisor, maybe analysis is a capability of handling data, of making a sophisticated calculation of keeping regulation, everything under control.

But I think that is, and will, it’s not, and probably won’t be a substitute for an actual investor because, because of biases, because of the complexity of the activity in itself. Interesting. And, you know, switching to another topic, I saw that we could go on with another episode without talking stablecoin, but apparently, since the last podcast, there is more, as well as, you know, we were talking last time in like emerging markets, you know, in Africa, all these small stablecoin companies that were raising to be able to move money, you know, in between African countries, where, of course, there is a challenge that, you know, different currencies, they all swapped against dollars, so it’s very inefficient, very slow, and very costly.

But right now, we can see that in Europe, as well, there is, you know, a sort of a huge battle from the MasterCard and the Coinbase of this world that are trying, that are fighting for the cross-border payment rails with two very different approach, you know, so MasterCard and Visa are slowly investing and looking into some of this technology, and then there is Coinbase that, of course, has technically the opportunity to move money from any Coinbase clients across the globe instantly through their platform, so it’s a completely different philosophy. How do you see this battle going on? And, you know, if you had a crystal ball, who do you think will win it? I think that probably I’m not an expert, but I think that probably also when we are talking Europe, we always have to keep in mind regulation, because as people say, you know, the US is a forefront of innovation, Europe is a forefront of regulation, but I think, you know, this is, there’s little doubt about the efficiency and the, you know, the change that crypto rails are introducing, so it’s something there’s no way back around it. Probably the situation will be something in the mix, because this efficiency and convenience is something that is not really perceived by the end player, so it’s something that people don’t see, and on the other side, this huge operator like MasterCard or Visa have the trust and the compliance layer, so I think the situation, the winner will be whoever successfully masters the trust and, you know, efficiency, so it might well end up that the Visa will be the provider, the provider of a compliance layer, and, you know, these new players will be the provider of the more efficient technology, so it’ll be a mix.

Yeah, I tend to agree with you in the sense that I don’t see even in this generation, at least, I don’t see enough critical mass of even financial education and the propensity, you know, to do, to use exclusively like a crypto rails, at the same time, clearly, the current system has its limits. Often in Europe, we don’t see them, because we are in the SEPA, very, not only regulated, but in a kind of very efficient, you know, global instant payments type of environment, but as soon as, you know, we are talking about two different currencies, from point A to point B, as well as we are even like a GBP to Euro, without going, you know, very, very far, the problem of getting instant availability of the money, it is actually the issue. And I don’t think that the winner or there is, there won’t be the one sort of entity will take it all.

At the same time, when you look at the pace at which stable coin transactions are growing, and you know, even SWIFT, we talked about it in the last podcast, they announced an additional layer to deal with digital assets. So it is clear that traditional banks are looking very closely at the topic, don’t you think? Yes, as you said in the beginning, you know, the difficult thing is that in Europe, at least for me as a consumer, this is not my primary need. In Europe, payments and conversion money are already working efficiently enough, you know, it’s a battle about who’s making money, who’s taking this commission, and I don’t care.

It’s not me. I don’t care at all. The level of service I have is already satisfying.

If I had to complain about something, it wouldn’t be about the speed at which I can transfer money in Europe, while in other countries like Africa or less developed countries, this is a real, you know, this is a real battle and probably the adoption will be even faster and more massive. So that’s my point of view. And I wanted to sort of talk about the last topic, because you are someone who, if I am in financial services on the, let’s say, startup investment side for the past 25 years, so you have spent roughly the same amount of time, but with a huge focus on wealth management.

And the question I want to ask is, it looks like, but maybe I’m wrong, that the way political events today are potentially influencing asset management is unprecedented, right? Because we never had so many availability of, in terms of array of investment possibilities. And on the other side, such a complex geopolitical environment, which is truly global, right? From the Middle East to the US, to Europe, there is almost no part of the world where geopolitical events cannot influence, you know, economics, which has always been true, but the tensions are making it more challenging. So when you look at it, you know, in terms of the past three to five years, it’s almost scaring, because you see big waves in short amount of time, right? But when you look at into a 20, 30, 50 years perspective, it still grow.

And sometimes, you know, every time there is a crisis like this, I said, my God, this might be this last one before everything implodes, you know, and the national debts will overcome economic stability, and everything will crash, but please give us a little bit of an optimistic message from someone who has seen it joining the course of the past 30 years of investment history. Well, I think the behavior of the market in the last few months or years has been, you know, given a lot of reason for being optimistic, because the markets seem to completely disregard the geopolitical tension. The only spike has been, you know, the Trump announcements on tariffs.

But apart from that, I think the market periodically has crisis. But I think more than, you know, from something geopolitical or the explosion of debt, you know, we are seeing the situation now in Europe, in France, the crisis. I think I expect more, you know, with Jimmy Dimon and the number of players in the market is too high.

The problems for the market will come from inside, probably from the leveraging credit, from the regulation of the US bank or from the crypto world. I expect something that we probably, because markets need to, will continue to go up and down. But I don’t expect a structural, you know, repricing of the market.

The market has become bigger, more liquid, even too liquid, because of the ATF passing markets. So I expect a normal type of correction that will happen. But at the same time, there are so many, you know, interesting challenges ahead that I don’t see a reason why.

And so much money around in the world that is slow, probably slower than in the past, but it’s still becoming richer. And there’s so many achievement and important things to do, but the market will continue to grow and rebound. Think about the challenge in the energy of the future.

There’s many important things and in biotechnology and all these explosion in AI and are probably not making money or making money in itself, but they empower a huge revolution, a huge advancement that in my mind, that I’m a very optimistic person, will positively impact the world. So I really don’t want to believe that we are so stupid that we want to come back in a war. And, you know, this situation, we have already seen too many wars in the past 10 years compared to the past.

And I don’t think we want more. I mean, personally, one of the things that I want to say worries me the most, but it is more like I cannot comprehend is when you look at AI, it is almost like if we added this, we saw some crazy valuation in the past, only right now we added the zero. So anything that was already very big and seems super influential on a 50 to 500 million range, now we added a zero and all of a sudden it is in the 500 to 5 billion.

And the investment in this new technologies is almost like also the venture capital investment added a zero. Now, is this sustainable? You know, in the past 20 years of fintech, almost, we mostly heard the stories about the unicorns, you know, the satisfied, the revelers, the wise, the people who made it, right? And from time to time only you see the money that gets lost from venture capitals, specifically that was put into the startup that didn’t make it. My worry is if we keep adding zeros in the amount of money we pour into this very highly risky startups and new ventures, do you think that the repercussions on the real market will also be higher? Or this is like money that is almost like in an island, you know, from people who made money before, and it’s like not really influencing, you know, the Matteo and Serena buying ETFs every day.

I think, okay, I think a little bit like the second one, I wouldn’t put any huge amount of money in a new AI, particularly generalistic AI venture, because the entry barriers are so high. The situation to me is that the AI market is already there. It’s already in the smart thing about, it’s probably dangerous to some extent, but it’s very smart on the other.

You don’t have AI player, you have an AI ecosystem where open AI is linked to Microsoft, which is linked to IMD, which is, and it’s, you know, Jensen1, that in my mind is a genius, has been, you know, powering his future revenues himself by investing 100 billion in open AI. So they, these big players, and some of them are not, you really start out like Microsoft, you know, NVIDIA, they are incumbent. They, I think they’ve been quite smart in creating this huge AI ecosystem that is not very, you know, nice in terms of competition because it’s not very accessible, but at the same time has been given them some type of safety.

So I personally don’t, you know, apart from, I don’t remember the name of the Chinese player, I think China would have its own AI ecosystem. I don’t see much room right now for new generic AI player that can come up with the new smartest algorithm. You know, the, the number of people, the advantage that the first mover, that is ChatGPT got by having everybody using its own system in terms of learning is, you know, making the gap to feel huge, compare, also compared to Anthropy, compared to the others.

So I think the challenge for the AI right now is finding intelligent application like verticals or nice application of something that is already a commodity. And the other angle to think about once again, like, which is true for cryptocurrency is energy and the consumption of energy is dramatically linked to the future of AI and crypto. So it’s an interesting, interesting type of investment cycle.

You not necessarily invest in AI, but you end up investing in, you know, in energy or it’s very, you don’t see much room for startups. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, you know, my, it is my venture capitalist mindset that keep them calling startup because they need growing capital.

But indeed, you can’t really call any of these giants or startups anymore, even if they behave as such, because I think I read it yesterday that Sam Altman has, I believe, five years to like make the revenue times hundred. And that’s why he raised so much money. But even the scale which, you know, is supposed to grow is out of this world.

Anyway, we’ll keep following this. Serena, thank you very much for being with us. Thank you.

It’s been a pleasure. It’s a pleasure always. And guys, this is episode 270 and it’s a wrap.

That’s it for another week of the world’s number one fintech podcast and radio show Breaking Banks. This episode was produced by a US based production team, including producer Lisbeth Severance, audio engineer, Kevin Hersham. If you liked this episode, don’t forget to tweet it out or post it on your favorite social media.

Or leave us a five star review on iTunes, Google podcast, Facebook, or wherever it is that you listen to our show. Those actions help other people find our podcast. And in return, that helps us build an audience that can be supported by sponsorship.

So we can continue to provide you with our award winning content every week. Thanks again for joining us. We’ll see you on Breaking Banks next week.