589 What The Future Looks Like in Finance and Fintech Jo Ann Barefoot, Nick Hughes and Brett King Live From Virgin Unite

Welcome to Breaking Banks, the number one global fintech radio show and podcast. I’m Brett King. And I’m Jason Henricks.

Every week since 2013, we explore the personalities, startups, innovators, and industry players driving disruption in financial services. From incumbents to unicorns, and from cutting-edge technology to the people using it to help create a more innovative, inclusive, and healthy financial future. I’m J.P. Nichols, and this is Breaking Banks.

Welcome to this special mash-up edition of Breaking Banks and… Barefoot innovation. With Joanne Barefoot. Joanne, of course, we’ve been on each other’s podcast, but we are this time in Necker Island, in the British Virgin Islands.

What brings us to Necker today? The Virgin Unite group has put together a special event on fintech, brought together a group of amazing innovators from around the world to talk about what should the future look like in finance and fintech. Awesome. And joining us in the hot seat as our mutual guest and conversationalist is Nick Hughes.

Nick is most well-known in the fintech space for his work in the foundational work in establishing M-Pesa in Kenya. After that, M-COPA. He’s currently working on carbon credit space.

Nick, welcome to… Yeah, thanks Brett. Yeah, nice to be here. And yeah, it’s been a wonderful couple of days talking about all things fintech with, as you say, quite a diverse group of people.

So what’s been the most interesting things you guys have been exposed to at the event? Well, I think the way they’ve structured their days have been good because you had a couple of presentations early in the morning and then discussions in the afternoon. And I like that format because you can listen to… And I think the speakers, you guys… Well, Brett kicked us off with a look at the future. And then this morning you covered what are we going to do with regulation? These are all big topics.

And then around the edge, we can have these conversations with people in the room that are… Some of them are pretty big change makers themselves. And so, yeah, it’s been a sort of perfect combination. And of course, we’re sitting in a beautiful location with… And it really is stunning.

And I mean, if you’d told me, I don’t know, let’s say, let’s go back, you know, 10 years or so ago, you know, actually M-PESA goes back further than that. It’s 18 years old. In March, it turned 18.

So it’s only just an adult. There’s 61 million customers now across Africa. It’s set a good model.

I mean, not just from the regulatory side, but from the business model, it was a telco running a digital financial service, not a bank. I think our Barefoot Innovation listeners would welcome just hearing the short version of… Yeah. Tell us about M-PESA’s performance, because those numbers are really impressive.

Yeah, sure. And where it came from, how you got the idea. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. You know, I’ll just restate it again.

This isn’t just me. I had an amazing team of very, very talented problem solvers. Yeah.

20 years ago, it started because we raised… Now, 20 years ago, we used to be concerned. I was working for Vodafone, big telco. And I was leading a team that was trying to help Vodafone get to grips with what we used to call the Millennium Development Goals.

And now we know them as the Sustainable Development Goals, STGs. And we were doing all sorts of things with mobile tech and mobile health. We were doing some mobile-based education, some great projects.

And then at a meeting, I met a representative from the UK government, said, we’re running a competition. We’re giving away grant money. Come up with an idea, pitch it in, and you could win a decent amount of money to test your idea out.

And so we, at the time, financial inclusion was clearly part of the Millennium Development Goals, still is part of an important development issue. It was a bit of a hot topic. You know, Eunice was driving microfinance out in Bangladesh.

And so we thought, okay, surely we can use the phone to help create a very light payments model. And we focused initially on linking it to a microfinance institute. Anyway, cutting a long story short, we won a million pounds, which today’s money is probably double that, maybe more.

And that gave me the chance to put a small team together, go down into one of our territories, the Vodafone group had a number of operating companies across the globe, but we went to Kenya. And we started testing what we could do with mobile phones. And these were feature phones, remember, not smartphones we’ve got today.

And we eventually said, okay, let’s find a town, let’s sign up about 500 members of a microfinance institute, and then allow them to disperse loans on the platform and make repayments. And again, I’m shortening what was quite a complex build, but we couldn’t find a platform that was relevant. So we built our own, we found that we had a brilliant team based out of Cambridge in the UK, who built us a rudimentary digital money platform.

And we just watched what these 500 or so pilot users did with it. And instead of paying the microfinance institute, we suddenly saw them storing money on their wallets. We built a very simple wallet.

And they started moving money between themselves, irrespective of what they had to pay back to the microfinance institute. And so it never really happened in an epiphany type strike of lightning, and PESA was born. But out of that experiment, we said, okay, let’s build a P2P money transfer system.

And we launched- It was really one of the first P2P, wasn’t it? Yeah, it really was. There were a couple of places around the globe where people were using text messaging to instruct a bank transfer, and this is 20 years ago. People were actually informally, because you can move airtime around, it’s almost like a proxy currency.

So people would trade airtime, which is very, very similar. What is e-value? But this was the first proper cashing, cash out, low cash into your wallet, use that wallet to do a number of things. And it sort of grew from that.

We very quickly got to a million customers, then 5 million, then 10 million, by solving the very simple problem of how do I move money between A and B, send money home was the strapline. And it just sort of grew very, very quickly from there. And it became known as mobile money.

Mobile money, yeah. So when did it get that moniker? Do you remember? Well, the project that we pitched in to the UK government to win the money from was called Mobile Microfinance. And then we sort of shortened that to mobile money.

And then the name came from the Kenyan team, so well, money is pesa. And that’s a word, yes, really, for money. You see, pesa, peso, it’s very common.

It’s linked in many languages to money. So we went M for mobile. It’s really not very scientific, M-pesa.

And then M-pesa today, of course, is almost like a verb. We’re empecifying some money. And yeah, that was the start.

It’s a pretty simple proposition. And who would have guessed that 18, 20 years later, you’d be on a bike riding up a hill with Richard Berenson? That’s true. Yeah, yeah.

Not able to talk about mobile money because I was out of puff. And he wasn’t out of puff. He’s a remarkable guy at his age.

He’s so fit and healthy. He led a walk today, a few K around Necker Island, climbing on the rocks of the seashore. You know, just incredible to see how active and switched on he is.

We went out in one of the little Canamaran yachts, and it’s five or six of us on their little sailing dinghy. And then suddenly shooting past us on a kite surf. It’s like shouting at us as he literally missed us by about a meter.

Yeah, yeah. He’s an inspirational guy. It’s his home now.

Joanne, you talked about the regulatory environment, but what have you found most interesting about the gathering of people here? Partly it’s the cross section of people who are here. Nick, I was so excited to see that you were going to be here because I’ve known Brett for years, but I didn’t know you and you’re a legend. And there are a lot of other really interesting people here.

They’re from all over the world, nearly every continent, maybe different types of efforts. A lot of them, I know we’re going to talk about this, a lot of them focused on climate. Yep.

And a lot of them focused on just doing good through FinTech is really the theme of it. How do we elicit change? Yeah. And on the regulatory side, my message to the group is people can be aspirational and dream all they want, but if you have a financial product, you’re going to have to work in a regulatory system that can let it thrive or it’ll never reach its potential.

And we should give equal attention to the regulatory issues. And my listeners and yours too, Brett, have heard me say a million times that the regulators are smart and dedicated and capable and all of it, but it’s really a challenge for them to keep up with the pace of tech change today and the mold breaking nature of the change. And we all need to, I think we need to work together more to solve it.

I don’t know how you avoid the conclusion that regulation is increasingly a technology play. It has to be. It has to be.

You can’t regulate AI-operated financial systems with pieces of paper and yellow highlighters. Clipboards. You’ve got risks in AI, you’ve got to use AI to deal with them.

There’s no doubt about it. And I think regulators increasingly realize that, but there’s a long journey ahead. Yeah.

What struck me from your talk, Joe, is the fact that this is not a technical challenge in front of us. We’ve got the technology to do this, to move money seamlessly and frictionless almost between individuals and organizations and entities and increasingly embedded finance. So it’s not a technology constraint.

It’s a regulatory one. And some of the inertia potentially from the incumbents protecting grounds. I see both nodding.

That’s a slightly sensitive space for banks and regulated financial institutions have regulated for a good reason. But you’re right. We could.

The technology is not the constraining factor. It’s how we deploy it and if we’re allowed to deploy it. I mean, in PESA as a case in point, when you guys entered the market in Kenya, financial inclusion was at about 24%.

Banks had reached less than 20% actually in Kenya. Less than 20%. And now it’s effectively 100% of the adult population.

Yeah. If you’re an adult, you’re almost certainly going to have it. If it’s not an investor, again, it’ll be a NTN or an Airtel or another digital wallet.

Yeah. So we’ve already seen that financial inclusion could be dramatically impacted by mobile tech and things like that. But the other thing that we looked at tackling potentially is where we, from a regulatory perspective, what else could we do with fintech? Yes.

And it was interesting. We’ve talked about digital inclusion and financial inclusion in the event, but there were some more lofty goals looking at climate potentially. And we had the founder of Omaze Network, Matt, talking about his incredible journey and his story in terms of becoming one of the largest non-government charity operators globally.

Really making a big difference. And of course, the Virgin Unite. A compelling personal story.

Oh yeah. Just really stunning. Amazing story.

Yeah. But it shows the possibilities, you know. Well, so you kicked us off, Brett, seems like a week ago, but this is what, two days ago, I guess.

Days ago, three days, yeah. With Globes of the Future and everyone knows you’re a futurist, but share some of the highlights that you brought to this group to set the stage for what we should think about for the weekend. I mean, I don’t think this is any surprise to the Breaking Banks audience.

You know, I’ve been, I’ve shifted into the futurist role over the last 10 years or so, and you’re on the futurist podcast as well. But I think what I’m getting more confident about articulating is that the current system of economics, the way we think about money, you know, and its role in society, and the metrics that we use to currently measure the performance of economies, you know, namely GDP, GDP growth, you know, trade surpluses and things like that. All of that sort of becomes a little bit meaningless in the face of some of the changes, macro level changes that we’re going to be talking about over the next 20 to 30 years.

So I decided to sort of focus more on that, you know, is what does the world of 2050 look like? You know, what do economies look like in the 2050s? And how will climate mitigation and AI, you know, embedded in our society, how is that likely to change our operating system as a species? And, you know, if I was talking about that 10 or 20 years ago, it would sound like science fiction. But it’s here. Yeah, exactly.

I had the misfortune of following Brett. Brett was the first speaker, I was second. I agree that’s a high bar, but you were fantastic.

You did a great job. Well, I think what you touched on, which is exciting, is what are we going to use FinTech for? So it’s here, we can do it. But for me, we can start to bring it into solving some of these other challenges, such as, you know, how can we link payments to carbon, you know, good data for carbon projects, reliable, verifiable, auditable data that prove carbon is being removed or avoided.

Let’s link that to a payment, a digital payment. We can do that. And so that’s the sort of thing that excites me.

But you think beyond that, you think FinTech into health, FinTech into agricultural value chains. It’s the application of FinTech that there’s so much potential. Even open banking, you know, which is sort of, has been somewhat controversial in some markets.

Or, you know, there’s been arguments that even though open banking has been broadly accepted in places like the UK, in the EU, that it hasn’t really, you know, what has it resulted in, in terms of, you know, specific traction. But, you know, if you look at how we’re going to have to deal with things like longevity, or an AI-based advanced healthcare, we’re going to need open data for health, right? So it’s sort of like open banking becomes a bit of a template for open data generally and sort of the regulatory environment. I think that’s right.

And I think if you can get regulation right in finance, which is so complicated and fraught, then that template can work probably most anywhere, whereas it doesn’t really necessarily work the other way around. But, you know, on climate, Nick, I’d love to have you talk about your new initiative. It was fascinating to hear about it.

Yeah, great. Again, it’s an early stage idea, but I’m building a platform that allows buyers of carbon credits. I mean, the carbon markets are a big and complex space themselves.

In fact, you’ve got compliance regulated carbon markets and voluntary carbon markets. And the voluntary markets have taken a bit of a battering in the last couple of years because of the difficulty of proving that carbon is being reduced or removed. And there’ve been a few exposures in the media about these flaky projects with no data and huge amounts of money, well, you know, tens of millions of money going missing for carbon projects, which are nothing more than, you know, what somebody’s decided to write on a piece of paper.

And I took another business I started called M-COPA, co-founded with a guy called Jesse Moore 12 years ago now. But we took that company, we were providing Pico Solar for households initially, and we were displacing kerosene in the household across Africa. And so there was a carbon opportunity because you kick the kerosene out and you bring clean energy in.

And so we went through the verification process and it took years, cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars. We sold our credits to Microsoft, barely washed our face with them. I thought this system of getting into the carbon markets is archaic.

So that was the seed for let’s build a digital platform that does that. And it’s been a hard time to raise new money, but we successfully closed seed round just over a year ago. And we’re now building a digital, it’s a fintech play actually.

It is because what we’re doing is linking money to data. So the data prove the carbon reduction has happened, either it’s a biochar facility in Kenya or it’s a solar irrigation installation in Uganda. We monitor that equipment and the project, capture the data, fully auditable.

We write a protocol to bring it to the cloud. We create a unit of carbon, which is typically a ton of CO2e or CO2 equivalent. And then we allow buyers to come onto the platform and look right all the way down to the source of the data if they want to, but they have the confidence that a third party has vetted that data set.

And then they purchase that digital carbon certificate off the platform. And so we’re sort of tokenizing the carbon data and allowing a buyer of carbon credits to, and the money can go all the way down to the M-Pesa account of a farmer using a solar irrigation unit or a woman in the home using an electric cookstove, not a charcoal cookstove. We can see the funds go all the way from the buyer to the project.

It’s sort of doable. Again, it’s not the technology. We know how to do that.

We can move 10 euros or dollars to a thousand shillings in an M-Pesa account. Can we get the market to accept that that’s a good proposition? And I think we’ve got some good supporters. In fact, funnily enough, it’s some UK government money that’s come in through an organization called FSD Africa, Financial Sector Deepening Africa, and an impact investor.

And yeah, we’re testing it now. I shared a little bit about it at this event because I think, as you said, John, there’s quite a few people in that room who are motivated to think about fintech and sustainable development. And this, I think, is a good example of how we can use fintech to solve a sustainable challenge.

But even, I mean, even if you’re looking at sort of digital twin operations and AI measuring the world, tokenizing, then that’s a prototype of that type of system as well. Yeah, absolutely. And make it auditable.

Make it fully transparent. Anyone can come in, look at the protocol, look at how we’ve calculated that. There was a bit of a debate.

I don’t know if you got involved. Do you need a blockchain in there as well? And the distributed blockchain fans will say, yes, that’s your true sort of path to total trust. But I can see an opportunity eventually for almost like a carbon coin on a distributed blockchain.

But right now, I sort of think good digital engineering, we run a ledger. We run an event-based ledger. So we have the immutable record of data in and who’s bought it and who’s sold it.

But it’s not a distributed ledger. That feels like it might be an overcomplication right now, but you can sort of see where this might go. But just good digital engineering.

There’s the data. Here’s the e-money. Link the money.

So as the carbon data approved reductions are being made, money is flowing in exchange for that digital carbon certificate. But to Joanne’s point, you know, like it’s not a technology problem. Solving climate change is not a technology problem.

We can extract carbon. It’s not commercially viable right now. We can shift to renewable energy stores, but battery tech isn’t commercially viable.

So it’s not. When we argue for why we haven’t done these things often, it’s not that we have a technology hurdle we’ve got to go over. It’s just a policy and economic yeah.

I think there are areas where the technology is only recently or not quite there in some of the areas we would like, but there’s so much that can be done with what we have. And as you said, Nick, we at AIR have done some work on carbon markets and climate. And this point that you’re making, that the system that we have had has been kind of built on a foundation of sand in that you can’t easily tell in most cases whether the carbon is actually being.

No, you can’t. And that’s been a problem. That’s the metrics key.

And then combining that with something that’s easy to audit and prove and is transparent. I think it’s really, really exciting. Yeah, it could be.

I mean, again, I run a risk of oversimplifying, but I think I’ve got a great team again. I’ve got a new company called 4R Digital, but the team there have come through M-Pesa. Many of them have worked on M-Pesa.

They came with me into M-COPPA and they’re sort of all excited to one more twirl around the dance floor and see if we could make this carbon value exchange platform work. But I think we can. In fact, I know we can.

It’ll be about acceptance and regulatory context. And can we get buyers to trust this system? Can we get sellers to go on board because they can see a new revenue opportunity? So I’m not saying it’s a panacea. Because there’ll be a lot of bumps along the road.

But I do think we can. But another cool thing that you’re doing is offsetting the carbon footprint of this event. Yeah, it’s the first time they’ve had a carbon neutral event at Growerwood.

Yeah, exactly. So we’ve calculated the footprint of the event, which 90% of it will be from people’s flights. And then we gave people a choice from a tiny little mini site we set up to pick a project or two.

And then we’ll purchase credits from those projects. Very cool. Very creative.

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Learn more at AlloyLabs.com. Alloy Labs. Banking Unbound. So talk some more, Brad, about, well, let me ask you this.

What have you found most interesting here? You’ve been deeply thinking about these issues. You see the whole world. We’re telling us where you’re heading next and so on, you know, you’re aware.

What’s been most interesting? I mean, I guess it’s not a surprise, but I managed to sit down and have a one-on-one with Richard on many of the topics that are covered in the keynote. And he knew all the data points that I did. And I spend my life researching this stuff and figuring it out, and often for the purpose of putting it on the page and putting the data behind it.

And Richard just had all that data in his head. So he’s often thought about this, but it’s great to come into an environment like this, where when you’re talking about the impact of artificial intelligence and how that’s got the potential to change the world or how quickly climate impact is changing, you know, humanity, that you don’t have to argue the toss on any of that. It’s just about problem solving.

And the people that are here are, you know, I know there’ll be people listening to this who maybe have a doubt whether climate change is man-made or even if it exists, or whether it’s a natural cycle versus anthropomorphic climate change. But here we’ve been able to look at how humanity transitions to what comes next, you know, without that debate side of it, and also accepting the exponentiality of these changes that are happening. So for me, the group of people that are open to those ideas and looking at problem solving, it’s hugely positive, because for me, it says we don’t have to enter a phase of collapse, you know, broad social unrest because of techno-unemployment or, you know, massive economic impact from climate-related issues.

There is a path. If you get the right people in the room together, there is a path forward, and these problems can be solved. So I think that’s what I would probably broadly take out of the meeting of the minds that’s happened here.

I agree. If we solve the regulatory parts of all of them, I mean, we’ve talked also about things like affordable housing and broadly financial health. And I don’t remember all the problem statements that we were grappling with today.

But, you know, my feeling is it’s, I won’t say it’s easy to envision the tech and sort of business solution for so many of these things using new tech, but all those things are going to bump up against barriers unless we think of an ecosystem shift that’s bringing the policymakers and the regulators to the table, helping them understand what the case is for why this change is actually going to be better, why it’s actually going to advance their own goals in most cases. And then what do we do? And my argument is the regulators themselves need to modernize their technology. They need a new model.

They need to be in the cloud. They need to be getting good data. They need timely data.

They need complete and granular data. They need AI and other tools like that for analyzing patterns. They need to be able to keep up with trends.

They need to be able to analyze the reported data from the entities they regulate and also the big data and the external data on what’s going on in the world. And I made the argument that bank supervisors ought to be equipped with their own AI agents who absolutely look at the big patterns and a queryable system where the bank examiner or the securities investigator or whatever could look at information and say, is this happening? What’s happening there? What’s the early alert light that we should be paying attention to? Somebody asked a good question today to you about where are the bright spots? Can you see any of the regulators starting to work on this? A lot of them are starting to work on it. I don’t think any of them, even the ones that are really kind of famous for being committed to this kind of thinking, don’t claim they’ve got it all done.

But the UK is really far along, actually, the Financial Conduct Authority. I have a show with, I could put it in the show notes with them on, you know, they are fully in the cloud. They are bringing… That in itself is a huge thing.

Yeah, they’ve been around for three years. They pioneered the tech sprint. They pioneered the tech sprint model and they had the original sandbox and they’ve been doing, and I also called out the Monetary Authority of Singapore today.

They’ve really been outstanding. But there are regulators all over the world who have reached a point where they think we’ve got the technology change has gotten to the point where they know they need to change. And now they’re trying to figure out how do we do that? What are the resources needed? How do you prioritize? What does that journey look like? And I thought it was interesting you also called out, you referred to Mark Carney, who has since become Prime Minister of Canada.

That’s the correct title, isn’t it? That’s right. He was obviously Governor of Bangor, not too long ago. And he talked about the fact that the level of information that regulators were receiving, what was the quote? So he said several years ago, and I’ve been quoting him ever since, that at the Bank of England, I don’t remember the number, but they receive so many pieces of data that if their supervisors read it all, it would be the equivalent of reading the complete works of Shakespeare every day, twice a day.

Can you imagine? Every week, twice a week. Yeah, but it’s still, I mean, you know, it’s still impossible to sort of think about. So what that means, they can’t see what’s going on well enough.

You know, they’re going to need better tech to do that. The other thing that Carney talked about, and we discussed this at length as well, was that he said that he thought we needed new value systems to emerge. So Nick, what do you think the value, how do we change the value systems around the economic system? Actually, Mark Carney had a role to play in, along with, I think, Bill Winters.

He co-led a UN working group on how do we make the carbon markets work properly? And the big point in this document was we need a proper digital infrastructure, if the markets are going to work. So he’s, and as part of that, and then he gave the Reith lectures in the UK were sort of common. Once a year, they run a, they ask a celebrity to come and give a couple of lectures on some big topics.

And Carney came and talked about value, then how we need to bring new metrics into what we value and how we quantify it. And can we start to find better ways to encapsulate that value? And how do we recognize it and potentially monetize value in different ways? So I thought he’s a, yeah, he’s got some good, some brilliant opinions. And I think he can clearly see that there’s an emerging world in which we put, we can quantify the value we put on different things beyond just, you know, dollars or cents or pounds or pennies.

To my knowledge, he’s the first head of state or head of a country who was previously a financial market supervisor. And so he’s got deep insights into the kinds of things we think about. And I think that’s really interesting.

Yeah. Doesn’t matter. Anyway, Trump’s going to take over Canada, isn’t he? Oh, face.

He’s going to become a sub-state. Yeah. I mean, the chaos that that has wrought on global policy and global economics cannot be understated.

But, you know, without, obviously we have a lot of American listeners, so, you know, we’ll choose to steer clear of that a little bit today. I’ll say for my listeners at Barefoot Innovation have heard me say, whether you like what Trump is doing or don’t like what Trump is doing with the changes to the government and Elon Musk and Doge, the fact that the system is being broken in many profound ways means that people should be thinking about what should come next. And it should be worth it.

So why don’t we finish on that note? You know, what do you think if, let’s put a positive light on this. What do you think is possible for what comes next as a result of your few days here in Nicaraguan with Virgin Unite, Richard Branson and a host of other really interesting people? Should I go first? I’m an optimist anyway, but I think it’s just reinforced that there are some very influential people and organisations starting to think through where this is going. You know, the pace is fast and these external factors we see in the world today are sort of distressing on one level, but it depends how you look at it, isn’t it? It’s change, as you say, Jo, change is happening.

We’re going to move to a new state of some sorts. That’s potentially a big opportunity if you look at it with an optimistic lens. But I think we have to, you know.

I agree. And the thing that I think I’ll add is that what’s wonderful about this event and frankly, what is, I think, the secret to practically everything going on here is that people need to come out of their silos and break down the walls of silos and work together. And this event is designed to do that, to bring people together from different countries, different industries, different backgrounds.

And the combination of problem solving perspectives, resources, networks and so on, when you put them together against a problem that one group has been trying to solve with no, you know, with limited success for a long time. Yeah, I agree. How about you, Brett? I think for me, you know, I realize being with this group of people, it gives me actually great optimism.

Because when you get people that are future focused, but on fixing the problems we have, rather than trying to defend the current system, which is often what we get into, that there’s really no limit to what we can accomplish. And just the, you know, the small group of people we’ve had here, and the potential that has come from these conversations shows that, you know, again, like you said, Gerard, it’s not a technological problem. You know, it mainly comes down to economics and politics these days.

But if we can get past all of that, none of these problems that we talk about are unsolvable or too difficult. Homelessness, poverty, you know, longevity, you know, all of these things, you know, we are on the cusp of some amazing changes, if only we give ourselves permission to adapt as a species. So let’s wrap it up.

How can people find out more about the Barefoot Innovation podcast and what you’re doing at the Alliance for Innovative Regulations? Yes, thank you. So the AIR website is regulationinnovation.org, and there you can find the podcast show. Lots of interesting work we are doing all over the world.

We’ve got projects in Africa. We’ve got projects really all over the world, and white papers and roundtables and a lot of exciting things. Very cool.

And how about you, Nick? Yeah, so well, 4R Digital is the new company. There’s not a lot out there yet. We’re sort of fresh out of the blocks, but you can go to 4Rdigital.com. That’s the number four, the letter R, digital.com. I’m a big believer in a fourth revolution, so 4R Digital.

And then, oh, look, look me up on LinkedIn. Yeah, very happy to see you. And Brett, for those who are listening on the Barefoot platform or the AIR platform, how do they find you? You can check me out on LinkedIn.

I’m on social. Brett King, of course, brettking.com. And check out provoke.fm for access to both the Breaking Banks podcast and the Futurists podcast, which are two of world category leading podcasts in this space. So thanks for joining us.

And that’s it for this week. Yeah, good to be with you. That’s it for another week of the world’s number one fintech podcast and radio show, Breaking Banks.

This episode was produced by our US-based production team, including producer Elizabeth Severance, audio engineer Kevin Hirsham, with social media support from Sylvie Johnson. If you like this episode, don’t forget to tweet it out or post it on your favorite social media or leave us a five-star review on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Facebook, or wherever it is that you listen to our show. Those actions help other people find our podcast.

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We’ll see you on Breaking Banks next week.