Welcome to Breaking Banks, the number one global fintech radio show and podcast. I’m Brett King. And I’m Jason Henricks.

Every week since 2013, we explore the personalities, startups, innovators, and industry players driving disruption in financial services. From incumbents to unicorns and from cutting edge technology to the people using it to help create a more innovative, inclusive, and healthy financial future. I’m J.P. Nichols, and this is Breaking Banks.

All right, welcome, everyone. We are here recording live from South by Southwest at the Alloy Labs fintech house. And yes, it is an actual house for those of you who are not watching on video for a very special crossover episode of Breaking Banks and Tech on Reg.

I’m Dara Tarkowsky, the host of the Tech on Reg podcast and special guest host of Breaking Banks. And because we are here at South by Southwest meeting with leaders and entrepreneurs and economists and futurists, and frankly, people who are much, much cooler than lawyers like me, we are here to discuss the practice of foresight. I know, big brain thoughts.

And here with us to discuss the practice of foresight is Toder Moning, senior vice president and lead futurist at U.S. Bank, and Eric Scherr, the chief strategy officer at Sunrise. Welcome to South by. Welcome to fintech house.

Yeah. Happy to be here. Thanks, Dara.

Awesome. Before we get into the meat of our discussion, I’d love for our guests to just share a little bit about their roles with their respective FIs. Tod, we’ll start with you.

Tod. Great. Thanks.

I’ve been with the bank quite a long while with our chief digital officer, Dominic Ventura, started the innovation group there about 16 years ago. It’s one of the longest running innovation groups at a bank. And a few years ago, had the opportunity to start an applied foresight practice.

And so I’ve been running that with a small team of foresight folks. Awesome. Yeah.

Thanks. I head up the strategy and innovation area for Sunrise Banks. My role is really threefold.

It’s to meet with fintech founders and vendors who are looking to do business with the bank. I also am a bit of a capacity builder, building business cases for either internal capacity, internal capabilities, or external customer facing products. And then finally, they give me the opportunity to think about tomorrow, which is where the whole notion of applied foresight comes into play.

The opportunity to think about tomorrow, that’s like a big thought already, but like not what you’re going to have for breakfast tomorrow. No, not that. Yeah.

So I want to set the stage for a minute about what the practice of foresight actually is. For those who may know a little bit about it, but not a lot of bit about it. As I was first learning about the practice of foresight, honestly, I couldn’t help but conjuring up like really strange images of bankers and lawyers huddled around a conference room table, like wistfully scaring into a giant crystal ball.

And don’t we all wish it were actually that easy. But the truth is, with really profound and accelerated changes resulting from the application of disruptive technologies, we are at fintech house after all. We’re talking like AI and IOT, embedded finance, insert series of buzzwords here, really do require an understanding and incorporation of innovative approaches to processes and strategic thinking, and more importantly, strategic planning, i.e. thinking about tomorrow.

And honestly, who amongst us personally, professionally hasn’t been surprised by unexpected economical, political, societal events that all end up affecting us in ways that we rarely have the luxury of sitting down and thinking about long term. So in terms of rapid change, rising uncertainty, these are challenges that every organization faces more and more. So Tata and Eric, I’d love for you guys to spend just a minute sort of defining what the practice of foresight maybe means generally, but more importantly means to you as a practitioner of it.

Yeah, great. And I like the crystal ball analogy. It’s more like a snow globe really, right? Shake it and see what you get one day.

And then you shake it again like a magic eight ball, right? Yeah, exactly. All right. Ask later.

You know, foresight is really about using facts about the past and present, like signals and drivers and trends in a domain that you’re interested in, right? The future in our mind is domain centric. So like the future of food, the future of transportation, the future of payments, and taking those trends, and helping your clients consider their biggest uncertainties using foresight tools like scenarios, right? Helping you. You can’t predict the future, right? Anybody that tells you they can, don’t believe them unless they have like a working time machine.

But what you can do is you can think about multiple little f futures that might come to bear, ones that would be of impact for that client, and then help them understand what would be preferred for them and their clients, right? What they want to move towards, positive futures, or what they want to move away from, shadow futures. And Darryl, you bring up a great point. You know, organizations reach a point where they see an issue that they’re trying to deal with and they realize it’s really more complex than what they first imagined it to be.

Or they are looking at a strategic plan that is becoming increasingly short-sighted and the problems they realize are really more long-term than what their plan is. And it’s in that vein that people look for a method and a mindset to be able to begin to address those. And so for me, foresight is a discipline, it’s a process that, first off, takes us through the ability to acknowledge that we have biases and limited awareness.

Just by virtue of the fact that what we do on a day-to-day basis, the way we earn our paycheck is by being really competent in a certain area or field. And that notion gives rise to the risk that we suffer from educated incapacity, meaning we are so knowledgeable about that which is in front of us, i.e. the banking sector, the financial services sector, that we sometimes we just fail to see the change that’s going on outside of our industry that’s going to impact us in profound ways. And sometimes we get that sense of it as organizations, and so it’s creating awareness and then acknowledging those biases so that we can then, as Todra mentioned, we can begin to look at what is unfolding in society around us and finding signals which are really subtle but give rise to manifestations we’ll call trends, and we’ll get into some of those examples I think in a little while.

And then it’s taking those trends, once you identify them, and how do you make sense of those? So there’s a sense-making piece that gives rise to things like scenarios. You can start to build a vision of the future, and good organizations and foresight will build multiple variations of the future because the future is unpredictable. Nobody has that crystal ball.

And then you finally put it into practice. So once you have those visions of the future, how do you either create a strategic plan that is more resilient, or how do you take action to take advantage of the opportunities you’re uncovering or that you believe you are uncovering as you take and look at these futures and see, boy, there’s a couple of commonalities here. So it really doesn’t matter which future is going to hold true.

We think that this trend is strong enough to actually go and build a product or service around that. Yeah, and I think that’s like, I agree, that’s like the most important part of it, the applied part, right? Because once you have those positive disruptions, opportunities, those negative disruptions, threats, what are the predicates, either the things that you would expect to see if this was starting to unfold and come true, or if you want to move toward that way, backcasting from that future, right? What’s it take to get halfway there? What’s it take to get halfway to halfway there? And then on Monday morning, what should I be researching, testing? Who should I be talking to? Who should we be partnering with? Well, forgive me for what might seem like a pretty obnoxious question that I’m about to ask, but we just said, these are not crystal balls. We can’t predict the future.

When we try, we’re wrong. I would imagine you both get asked the question a lot, like, okay, if we can’t predict the future and we don’t know what’s going to happen in the economy and, you know, Wall Street’s been trying to predict, you know, the future of the stock market and they suck at it. So like, why are we bothering? Why do we bother doing it if we’re just wrong all the time? That’s a great question.

That’s not obnoxious. I mean, it’s like a little obnoxious. That’s an obnoxiously great question.

You know, it’s a great question and we explain it like literally in one chart, right? We’ve got two big reasons. One big reason is, you know, it took almost 10 years for Netflix to get to a hundred million users. It took four and a half years for Facebook to get to a hundred million users.

It took nine months for TikTok to get there and it took two months for ChatGPT to get there. And so, you know, when that future is coming at you faster and faster, you know, how do you keep up? Right? One answer, one very unsatisfying answer is, well, you don’t because you can’t, right? Oh, that’s sad. That is.

That’s a sad one. A better answer is, well, you know, as Foresight’s folks, we’ve been trying to get there early, right? And the idea is that if things are changing at an accelerating rate, you really need to amp up your imagination. And the only way to really do that is to systematically try to at least consider, immerse yourself in, empathize with various futures, not all of them, but the ones that would be impactful to you, to your business drivers, to your family, to people that, you know, you’re serving.

You know, I think that’s one big answer. I think the second big answer is, you know, business people at the bank and at your bank as well, I’m sure they have day jobs, right? I mean, they’re working in Horizon One. They’re working with technologies and infrastructure that’s already scaled.

And so, you know, if you know McKinsey’s three horizons, there’s Horizon Two and Horizon Three. Horizon Two are what these folks, you know, at Fintech House and lots of other folks do relative to startups that are trying to prove product market fit, and they’re going to be coming to market, you know, soon. They’re not as scaled, right? That’s Horizon Two.

And Horizon Three are those things that are much farther out there. What most people get wrong, at least I got wrong, finally dawned on me, is that Horizon One, Two, and Three don’t happen, you know, in succession. They’re happening in the same time space.

And so, we have bits of the future laying around now, right? The Horizon Three future. They’re just not scaled yet. They’re the things that R&D shops are doing and scientific discoveries, and you read about them every day.

It’s almost like just going on an Easter egg hunt when we do future scales, right? Lots of candy in the world. We’re going trick-or-treating. Eric, what do you think? Yeah, I would agree with what Tod or said.

And when you compare and contrast the practice of foresight versus traditional strategic planning, when you think about how that gave rise in the 60s, you know, it was very much a finance-focused exercise. And when the pace of change was much slower, you would have a rate of growth company, you know, a company of a rate of growth year over year. And for many times, and still as many companies will do this, they’ll look and they’ll say, hey, we had 5% growth last year.

We’re going to multiply it by 1.05 and put it out there. And as soon as that number hits the spreadsheet, everyone looks at it and they go, well, that’s precisely wrong. And now I’m going to spend the next year trying to explain the variance up or down from that number.

What we do in foresight is while we can’t predict the future, we can begin to look at things that people should be paying attention to. Because there is so much change across so many horizons, so many domains. So how do you begin to separate? And while we can’t incorporate everything that’s coming in, we can attempt to identify those serious drivers that we just need to monitor and pay attention to that could cause disruption for us.

And that at least gives us the nimbleness, again, to build resilient plans. We can react without being caught unawares. All right.

So that’s the practice of foresight generally. I want to talk about how that practice is used within a financial institution specifically. Because I think as we were getting ready for this session, a lot of the questions that I think were swirling around, we were talking with Mr. Henricks about his thoughts.

And in financial services, an industry that is so focused on safety, soundness, risk management, compliance, all of these things are mission critical to these institutions’ existence. How do you really in your roles, how do you balance that tension between, oh, my gosh, new and scary with the quote, unquote, old and safe? And I put safe in air quotes because we all know that safe is just like a synonym for actually better understood. It’s nothing we’re doing is actually, quote, unquote, safe.

How do you how do you strike that balance in your roles? Eric, let’s start with you. Sure. So, you know, it’s it’s funny because the technology that we see, the more the more I get into futures work, the more I’m interested in history.

Because many times we’ll see we’ll see concepts that come out and we can relate them to something that’s that has been created before. An example, I met a banker who is he was with the regional bank and he was telling me he was very excited about his about his digital bank and how he was looking to roll it out to roll out an employer offering. And I’m thinking in the back of my head, great, a single side credit union.

That’s awesome, right? Because that’s exactly what he was describing. So what’s old is new again. So so sometimes the ability for for for people to work in foresight is is that ability to spend a little bit of time and to put it in frameworks that regulators can understand.

Eric’s commentary on regulators is, you know, we they seem to be a bit prescriptive in general. They’re outcome based. They look at the results from the consumer point of view or or the financial or the financial providers point of view, depending on the maybe depending on the prevailing winds.

But no, I don’t see them looking from a systemic point of view. And so if so, so part of part of the work that I do as part of the bank is taking the opportunity to maybe present frameworks as we’re introducing new concepts to regulators and talk a little bit about how fits in the system. How can it relate to that which is already known? And then let’s talk about what that next iteration or variation means from a regulatory point of view.

Wild thoughts about regulators sitting around, engaging in the practice of foresight like. Wish list, is that is that is that something we want them to be doing, is that something we wish they were doing, you know, for our industry? Yeah, you know, it’s funny because you go to the US, you go to the federal government and there’s a whole practice of foresight practitioners, a whole whole society of them. Now, many of them are in the military, so they’re trying to figure out who’s going to be mad at us next.

But but but there are a number like an office management budget and throughout throughout the industry. So it would be good for it would yes, it would be it would be great if we could somehow sell some of the regulators on the potential of foresight and systems thinking in their work. An election year is the absolute perfect time to make that suggestion.

Todd, what do you think? I think it’d be interesting because, you know, it’s fun scaring the hell out of risk managers. And why should the why should the regulators get off the hook? Right. You know, I kind of think that, you know, helping.

The future is created by everybody, right. And so having a diversity of opinion when you’re trying to think about those and and figure out, you know, what is good, what is bad, it’d be perfect to have risk managers and regulators there. A number of years ago here at South by Southwest, we took part in a session they were having, a couple of agency, you know, folks, and it was called Let’s Be Evil.

And the idea of Let’s Be Evil was it was a bunch of product people that went and a bunch of technical and other kinds of folks. And we brainstormed different spaces, right, that are doing just the nastiest stuff. Right.

And then, you know, they picked one in a couple and we started brainstorming the worst things you could do. Right. Sell customer information, you know, all these horrible things.

And the idea was it was kind of like a reverse form of innovation, because if you can uncover those things that are, you know, credible challenges or problems or second and third or implications that might come to be, then you can innovate and try to make services and other kinds of products that would stop that. And that’s what a lot of, you know, folks in fintech do as well, especially in regtech. Yeah, well, I would just like to say next time there is a Let’s Be Evil session happening, I would very much like an invitation so that I could personally participate in the Let’s Be Evil session.

That was a blast. This show is brought to you by Alloy Labs. As much as we love talking on the show, we believe that action is more valuable than talk.

Alloy Labs is the industry leader in helping fearless bankers drive exponential growth through collaboration, exclusive partnerships and powerful network effects that give them an unfair advantage. Learn more at AlloyLabs.com. Alloy Labs, banking unbound. Let’s go back and talk about regulation for a minute, because Eric touched on it a little bit earlier.

And regulation, you know, the issues that I live and breathe and see way, way too close and personally every day is by definition prescriptive, reactive, at least in the United States. Like that is just what we’ve come to expect from not just one, but really sort of our entire alphabet soup of regulators that oversee our industry. So how do we marry the practice of foresight in a highly regulated industry when regulation is indeed just that prescriptive, reactive, backward looking, not forward looking? I think, you know, from from our point of view, because we’re in the innovation part of the bank, right, more of the explore portfolio of trying to find the next revenue streams that might be able to scale versus the business lines that are in the part of the portfolio where they’re running and scaling existing businesses.

We’re separated somewhat from that, right? So if there’s a roadmap and there are regulations that are all figured out, that that tends to be a horizon one, one and a half kind of thing. You know, technology always outpaces the ability of consumers to keep up, which tend to outpace the ability of businesses to keep up, because like you said, you know, they’re at some level more or less regulated. But then public policy ends up, you know, bringing up the rear there.

And so I think you’re always going to have that kind of regulation. And and I think you should. It’s just the whole point of foresights and especially horizon two and horizon three foresights is to divide yourself from the current context, because you’re talking about future customers, future systems, future jobs to be done.

And so, yeah, they’re going to be regulations. And you try to figure out what are all the negative or shadow things that could happen and to design around that, you know, especially from doing this podcast that I don’t get you so far, because when it comes to be, they will be prescriptive, reactive, et cetera. I don’t expect that’s going to change.

All right. So just but I think but I think foresight offers the opportunity to educate. Let me give you an example.

So the city of Norfolk, Virginia, home of the U.S.’s largest naval base, put out a study in 2015 called Norfolk 2100. And it looked at the sunny day flooding that was happening in the Hampton Roads area. And they drew a four color map.

You can go on the Internet and look at it. And they had some of the four colors represented neighborhoods that were at risk of sinking in the ocean, neighborhoods that were going to have to be shored up, including the naval base, neighborhoods that were going to have to be reimagined in terms of living places and then those areas that were at low risk. They came back in 2021, six years later, and they’re saying that some of those neighborhoods that they thought were at risk, they’re actually going to need to see to the ocean, which is fascinating because there’s someone in Norfolk that today has an eight hour a day job who’s trying to figure out what is the infrastructure implications of that.

So how do you shut off the water and the electric and the gas and not have that infiltrate the seawater, infiltrate the rest of the system? What happens to the homeowners? How do you get them out of there? Gee, does a FEMA check cut it anymore? You know, you start thinking about those things. And so now is the time when I see something like this, if I’m a if I’m a community bank in Norfolk, I’m talking to the city of Norfolk and I’m beginning to educate my state, my federal regulators about what’s coming down and about what the needs of my community are to begin to start designing policy, to start informing, making informed commentary to design policy so that when the time comes, the need, the programs have shifted and are meeting the needs of the community at that time. That’s where I think I think we can give that those types of discussions a head start.

And hopefully there’s not as much reaction. Interesting. So I want to go back and start.

We were using a word before signals. We look for signals, signals make up trends, trends last for periods of time. And these are the tools that we use when we’re putting, you know, foresight into practice.

So let’s start talking about some signals that you’re seeing. I know, you know, we were we were outside enjoying some barbecue earlier today. And Tata, you were you were looking at your news feed and you were like, whoa, we are chocked full of signals today.

What are some of the signals that you have seen are seeing right now that are most interesting to you in your roles? Tata. Man, that’s a big question, because there are a bunch of I warned you right at the beginning. I think, you know, there’s obviously a lot of signals about, you know, the changes that are coming about with AI.

I think folks are very focused on the text part of that, right, relative to LLM’s. But, you know, recently here at this conference, you know, heard about large action models. Right.

So if AI is able to, you know, imbibe all the language of the world and use it to figure out, you know, what what what we should say next, what it isn’t doing is interacting with the world. Yet you have this trend around connected devices and wearables and IoT things. You’ve got biotechnology trends, et cetera.

And these large action models are going to start actually predicting next action you should take. And that’s going to make them much smarter about the world. So that one’s.

Yes. Can I ask I’m going to I’m going to ask maybe a slightly uneducated question about since you brought up AI and the signals that we’re seeing in that sort of emerging technology. Obviously, the reason everyone is spending so much time talking about it, developing it, the bajillions of dollars that are being deployed here, it feels like the future.

Right. That’s how it feels. It feels like the future maybe even acts as a personal futurist.

But generative AI is largely, if not exclusively, dependent on a lot of backward looking data, most expected response data. So how does AI change the practice foresight? It seems it seems like a philosophical conflict almost. It is and it isn’t.

You’d be surprised because you can actually very quickly have it, you know. So, for instance, if you’re going to do foresight’s work in a domain, right. Maybe you know about that domain, but a lot of times you don’t.

And so if your client wants to look out, let’s say five years, then you need to look back to X, at least 10 years, right, to see all the milestones and all the things that have happened in that space and the trends that are bringing to bear on that space. And interestingly, generative AI can do that like a million times faster than I can. It can even, through creative writing and a back and forth with me, be able to put together some scenarios, be able to test different things like how would this change that? It’s it’s surprising.

You’re right. It is. It does have the risk of, you know, becoming an echo chamber, if you will.

But so far it’s been like, holy crap, this thing writes scenarios like way faster than me, not as creatively, but then you can turn out like, come on, be more creative. Like, you just have to haze your AI. You have to haze your AI, I love it.

Yeah. Like, you know, little kids scream and they shouldn’t, but they end up yelling at Alexa. It’s like, come on, you know, you can do better than that.

See, I take a slightly different view on this. I’m not I’m not as sold on AI as maybe others are. I agree with Todder that for base work, if you’re looking back because it is historically database and data is history, that’s great.

You know, but if you take the view that that is which is known to us as the history, that is that which is unfolding is the present and that which is unknown is the future. AI probably is going to have pretty much the same track record as my crystal ball, which is cloudy. I want to go on the record now.

Now, the danger I see in in trying to use AI to look forward is twofold. I think, you know, the large language models for me, the key word there is models being database, the bias in the in the type of data. I cannot help but think that as as more AI data is dumped into the data lake, that more models pull up, that conversely, human generated intuition is going to become more important.

And it’s going to be a little bit harder to separate the wheat from the chaff in that respect. So it’s not you can’t use it. It could be a great tool to help accelerate certain parts of it.

We just have to. But but but again, then we as futurists have to apply our our our filters to to take out that bias. You know, and we were talking about there are so many signals that we’re seeing in ESG.

We’re seeing them in technology, agriculture. If you’re if you’re in if you’re an agro lending business, you know, there’s there’s a million and a half different signals that you should be watching to solar. I mean, just the list goes on.

So I think it’s really interesting to think about how these other sort of things that we see in the news. And I love that we just sort of did this like impromptu tabletop exercise about how these one things that you may not have necessarily associated with a financial product or service actually is monumentally impactful. There’s a game called Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

That’s right. I mean, that that that futurists will play. Right.

You take your scenario and you say, OK, so how does this how does this attach itself to the future? And it’s actually a pretty easy game because you everything is connected now. Now we have we have processes and methodologies to help us stay honest. We’ve we talked a little bit yesterday about about a categorization called STEEP, which stands for Societal, Technological, Economic, Environmental and Political or Governance.

And those type that framework helps us. It keeps us honest because we don’t necessarily declare that we’re done with our scanning, picking up signals until we pick up signals in all in each of those categories, because that’s what’s going to give us a well-rounded view of what is happening out there. Yeah.

And I’d add that, you know, when you create scenarios, it’s not a it’s not a science fiction sort of thing. It has to be internally consistent and consistent and and plausible, like no underpants gnomes. Right.

No. Step one, we collect underpants. Step three, we make a profit.

What happens in the middle is like magic. You can’t do magic. You can’t, you know, do things that are outside the bounds of science.

Right. You can consider possible futures where it’s, oh, that’s possible with with future knowledge versus more plausible futures, which is that’s possible with current knowledge. But it has to hang together internally and consistently.

No cheating. I tend to think of Foresight as this cartoon character that’s sitting on a blank, blank acetone. So picture Donald Duck sitting on a blank acetone.

And you have no idea whether he’s sitting in the middle of the desert in the middle of Times Square. What Foresight does is Foresight paints that picture in the background. And we can paint number pictures so we can put Donald in the desert.

We can put him in in Midtown Manhattan. We can put him on a lake and he will behave differently based on his background. And that’s what we’re painting it.

We’re painting in that that background. But in all of those scenarios, Donald Duck is never wearing pants. That’s true.

Yeah. But you could imagine. But you could imagine.

So we’re sort of getting to the end of our time. This has been an incredibly interesting discussion for me. If there was really sort of one takeaway, one thing that both of you would want to leave listeners with about the practice of Foresight, why we should care, why it’s important and why, you know, every FI should have roles like yours within their institutions.

What would you say? I’m going to start with Tatar. I would say that that everybody, they think they feel that they’ve got different levels of agency. A lot of people don’t feel they really have agency in their future.

And I think that comes from the fact that, you know, they’ve done a bunch of MRI studies. And when you think of yourself and they look at fMRIs, your prefrontal cortex powers up. And when you look at a stranger, it powers down.

What they found is when you think of yourself 10 years from now, it stays powered down. So you kind of feel like a stranger to yourself. Your future self is a stranger to you.

Right. And I think that if you understand that you have agency. And you can actually do something about a future, either that you’re worried about or hopeful for, that that’s really important.

It’s the taking action. And the reason that’s so important is that, you know, the future is going to happen one way or the other. Either you can take agency and shape it or you can react to it when it sort of shows up on your front door.

I would agree exactly with what Todd or said, we are we we are we create our future every day or the actions we take today. And as an organization, as human beings, the future is all about humans. It’s not about the technology.

It’s not about the environment. I mean, it is to the degree that we are here, but the future is human centric. And we have the power to create our preferred futures by the actions we take today.

And the more deliberate we can be using tools like strategic foresight and practice those, we can begin to articulate. And sometimes for an organization. The myths and metaphors that are embedded deep in the organization are so embedded in the present that the organization is unable to express what it really wants to be.

And I think one of the most powerful outcomes I’ve had working with organizations in this is when they can when they actually find a voice, when they can put their preferred future into words and it gives them a beacon. Now they can start looking at their mission and tying it to that beacon and start planning. And that’s that to me is the gift of foresight.

I’m not even going to try to sum it up better than the two of you just did. Thank you so much for your time here. And, you know, who knows? We’ve got lots more geopolitical, economical signals that we should all be watching for.

So thanks again. Thanks. Pleasure.

Before we finish out this week’s show, I wanted to draw your attention to a new podcast that we’ve recently been involved in. It’s called Beyond Banking by CBD Talks. It’s a collaborative effort from the Commercial Bank of Dubai and the team at Breaking Banks, for which I’m honored to play the hosting role.

There are currently 10 episodes available. We welcome some phenomenal guests, including some unicorns, some founders of the fintech sector and some notable seniors from the banking industry from all around the world. We’ve delved into a variety of interesting topics relevant for all from climate and sustainability, AI’s impact on business, generative AI generally, the role of regtech, the future of banking, the future of money, the impact of bank actions on the economy.

And we’ve also had the opportunity to spotlight leaders shaping the industry. From the UAE specifically, we spoke to Her Excellency Raja Al-Mazuri, who was the founder of the fintech initiative at DIFC. We also spoke to Frank Bizzignano, the CEO of Fiserv and got into how Fiserv is adapting to these changes around digital.

We’ve really covered it all. Stay tuned for more of those episodes. And please don’t hesitate to let us know if there’s something you would like us to focus on of the next season of Beyond Banking or indeed for Breaking Banks.

It’s a really interesting series. I’ve enjoyed being involved in it. To stay current or learn about what’s happening in Dubai and the UAE, and of course, other regions around the world, download an episode today and listen to Beyond Banking by CBD Talks.

It’s available on Amazon, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, on Google Play or the Commercial Bank of Dubai website. Beyond Banking by CBD Talks. That’s it for another week of the world’s number one fintech podcast and radio show Breaking Banks.

This episode was produced by a U.S.-based production team, including producer Lisbeth Severance, audio engineer Kevin Hirsham, with social media support from Carlo Navarro and Sylvie Johnson. If you like this episode, don’t forget to tweet it out or post it on your favorite social media. We’ll leave us a five star review on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Facebook, Google Music or wherever it is that you listen to our show.

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We’ll see you on Breaking Banks next week.