HOST: Matteo Rizzi

GUEST: Sandra Yao, Group Head of Cross Border Remittance, Payments & BaaS (Fintech), Ecobank

What Is Powering Africa’s Digital Payments Transformation?

HOST (Matteo Rizzi):

Sandra, you’ve worked across African fintech for two decades. What makes this moment different? What forces are driving the acceleration we’re seeing?

GUEST (Sandra Yao):

Africa’s digital transformation is powered by a combination of mobile ubiquity, youthful populations, and the urgent need for accessible financial services. Unlike other regions, Africa leapfrogged legacy infrastructure, allowing mobile money and API-driven services to scale quickly.

Sandra emphasizes key drivers:

• Widespread mobile adoption enabling financial access
  
• Government and central bank pushes toward cashless economies
  
• New digital public infrastructure
  
• Fintech founders solving hyper-local problems
  
• Increasing cross-border trade demanding interoperable systems
  

QUOTE:

“Africa didn’t follow the traditional banking roadmap, we built around real-life needs, not legacy constraints.”

How Is Ecobank Enabling Cross-Border Scale Across 39 Markets?

HOST:

Ecobank operates in an incredibly complex environment. How do you build systems that work across so many markets?

GUEST:

Ecobank’s continental footprint is its biggest strength, and its biggest challenge. Each market has different regulations, connectivity, and customer behaviors. Sandra explains that Ecobank focuses on creating interoperable rails, API-first infrastructure, and modular services that fintechs can plug into.

Key elements of Ecobank’s model:

• Unified cross-border settlement frameworks
  
• An API marketplace to support fintech builders
  
• Partnerships with Google and major tech firms
  
• A focus on real-time remittance and payment flows
  
• Harmonized risk and compliance architecture
  

QUOTE:

“Our role is to create a foundation fintechs can build on, safe, compliant, scalable, and accessible across the continent.”

What Are the Biggest Barriers to Digital Execution in Africa?

HOST:

Africa has the talent and the vision. But what consistently slows execution?

GUEST:

Sandra details several friction points:

Top execution barriers:

• Regulatory fragmentation across countries
  
• Inconsistent digital identity systems
  
• Limited infrastructure in rural areas
  
• High cost of settlement and cross-border transfers
  
• Varying levels of digital literacy
  
• Fragmented payment rails lacking interoperability
  

She notes that overcoming these challenges requires collaboration, not competition, especially among banks, telcos, and fintechs.

QUOTE:

“Execution fails when we try to build 39 different solutions instead of one scalable, interoperable ecosystem.”

How Is Ecobank Supporting the Next Generation of African Fintech Talent?

HOST:

You’ve been vocal about talent development. What is Ecobank doing on this front?

GUEST:

Sandra highlights Ecobank’s commitment to nurturing African innovators through:

• Early-stage partnerships with fintech founders
  
• Accelerator programs
  
• Hands-on training in compliance, product design, and payments
  
• Giving startups structured access to Ecobank’s rails
  
• Building communities to connect talent across markets
  

Ecobank is not only building financial products, it’s building the talent pipeline that will run Africa’s digital future.

QUOTE:

“Talent is Africa’s most valuable asset, our job is to give them the tools and rails to build the future.”

What Does the Future Hold for Africa’s Digital Economy?

HOST:

If you project forward ten years, what do you see?

GUEST:

Sandra believes Africa will become a global reference point for digital financial innovation. The continent’s mobile-first infrastructure, entrepreneurial mindset, and increasing interoperability position it to lead in:

• Real-time cross-border payments
  
• API-first banking
  
• Embedded financial services
  
• Mobile identity frameworks
  
• AI-driven financial inclusion
  
• Logistics, agriculture, and mobility fintech
  

QUOTE:

“Africa is building for scale, for speed, and for human need. The world will follow what we create here.”

Raw Transcript:

Welcome to Breaking Banks, the number one global fintech radio show and podcast. I’m Brett King. And I’m Jason Henricks.

Every week since 2013, we explore the personalities, startups, innovators, and industry players driving disruption in financial services. From incumbents to unicorns, and from cutting edge technology to the people using it to help create a more innovative, inclusive, and healthy financial future. I’m J.P. Nichols, and this is Breaking Banks.

Today on Breaking Banks, we feature the newest addition to the Provoke family, Breaking Banks Africa. In this episode, host and executive producer, Matteo Rizzi, sits down with Sandra Yao, Ecobank’s group head for cross-border remittance payments and banking as a service fintech. With 20 years of experience driving fintech and payment innovation across Africa, Sandra brings a unique builder’s mindset into one of the continent’s largest financial institutions, operating already in 39 markets.

From pioneering mobile money to tackling fragmented infrastructure and regulatory environments, Sandra shares how interoperability, accessibility, and digital transformation are reshaping the future of payments in emerging economies like those on the African continent. Additionally, Sandra reveals how Ecobank is empowering young African talent, forming major tech partnerships, including with Google, and creating API-first solutions to help fintech founders scale cross-border. This episode is a listen for anyone passionate about Africa’s digital growth story, inclusive innovation, and hearing about those turning vision into execution.

From Nairobi to the world. Hey guys, welcome back to Breaking Banks Africa. My name is Matteo Rizzi.

I’m the executive producer of the show, and today is going to be, I feel, a very special episode. I’m welcoming Sandra Yao from Ecobank. Sandra, welcome to Breaking Banks Africa.

Thank you, Matteo, for having me. Super looking forward for this session. So, you know, when I was mentally preparing for this conversation, I said, you know, this is Breaking Banks Africa, and people might ask, what is a bold Italian and an Asian-looking lady talking, you know, have to do talking about the continent, right? I believe, actually, that we are going to prove after this half an hour of conversation that our story and our commitment, but especially your commitment, because you’re speaking from Nairobi to start with, will actually give us some more credibility.

Would you please sort of quickly intro yourself, Sandra, for our audience? So the name is Sandra. Right now, I’m currently serving as the group head for cross-border remittance payments and banking as a service slash fintech for Ecobank group. Joined the bank about a year ago.

Well, I’ve spent the last 20 years in Africa immersed in tech payments and the fintech ecosystem, often in high-growth, agile startup environments, and focusing on building payments, systems, reels from the ground up. So I came into this role with Ecobank September 2024 with a builder’s mindset. My focus currently is blending that fast-paced, innovative agility with the stability and vast Pan-African reach of Ecobank group.

Particularly passionate, like you, Mathieu, about driving interoperability to unlock the continent’s economic potential. Ultimately, I’m here to ensure that the future of African cross-border payments is seamless, optimized in terms of cost, and accessible to everyone. So you said that you’ve been in Africa for 20 years.

Can I ask you, without getting into personal story, but how did you end up? I mean, you’re not much older than 20 years old, but I’m pretty sure that there is another part of life that was outside of Africa. How did you end up in the continent? I think it’s life is about adventure. Let’s start from there.

Africa holds this mystery from especially people coming from Far East, you know, particularly I’m coming from the mainland of China. 20 years ago, that was a time, I would say earlier time, when there is a lot of drive, you know, from Far East into Africa. I was fortunate enough to be part of the early, you know, earlier people coming to contributing.

So my first job started with Huawei on the continent. As you can imagine, that’s the time they were really coming overseas, start building the telecommunication network across Africa. So I came into Africa, again, I was lucky enough.

My first station was in Nairobi, and everyone knows Nairobi is one of the best place to be. And I made this my home. So 20 years later, I’m still here.

Amazing, amazing. Let’s talk a little bit about something that I believe is a topic that is not only very close to your heart, but fundamental for the future of the continent. Guys, Sandra is my go to person in anything about payments.

For more than that, but I met her first when she was still at Tunes, you know, we can still name it is not, you know, maybe one day that will sponsor the show, thanks to this free mention. But, you know, Tunes is one of the pioneers in building these new payment, payment trails. And it’s we’re going to talk later about this super interesting jump that sort of merges right in your work, a background that is, you know, more agile, big, grow, fast, grown up oriented and a player that is more, I don’t want to say tradition, but certainly more looks more like a like a corporate.

But why is everyone so excited in building these new payment trails in the continent? And why is it different from, I believe, any other place on Earth, you know, build this race in Africa? I think the single most important word here is actually interoperability, right? The fragmentation and within Africa, we are 54 countries. Often I have to repeat this. It’s not Africa is not South Africa or Morocco, right? Let’s start from there.

So we have 54 regulators. We have a super fragmented payment system at the continental level. And we have a super fragmented regulatory environment.

We have great views in place, by the way. I think we are the continent that really pioneered and leapfrogged the traditional payments. So the burst of mobile money, you know, the likes of M-Pesa, Airtel money, Orange money, MTN.

We also have domestic payments, instant payment drills. I mean, if you look at Kenya, Nigeria, Ghana, Tanzania, and we also have the card networks, right? But they often operate in silos. So therefore it makes cross-border payments much more expensive, slower, and complex.

So as I mentioned, my passion is really in fintech and payments. So this opportunity gives me, I would say, a great platform where I can combine my mindset when it comes to startup and builder with the, you know, a running engine that is established, experienced, and we have a reputation when it comes to safety standards. So that’s, you know, when you combine that with the stability of a ratio of tier one corporate and the speed and excitement of startup to solve some of these biggest continental cross-border challenges, I think it’s really the best of both worlds, if you ask me.

I’m super excited about just this opportunity to have me and run with it. Yeah. Sandra, you are in what I believe is the cradle of the payments innovation because it’s the home of M-Pesa.

So Nairobi is almost the poster child. Kenya is almost the poster child for innovation in payments. Yet, EcoBank is present in, I want to say close to 40.

I don’t have the number exactly. 39. Exactly.

So close to 40 countries. And in some of these countries, there are very different types of challenges, okay? Starting with, for example, it’s not only financial literacy. It’s actually literacy as a whole.

People can’t read. You have an illiteracy rate of even over 30 or 40 percent in some of the countries where EcoBank is present. And this, of course, gives a huge challenge to the last mile, right? Where it’s not only about Rails, but it’s also about reach this population that maybe they actually have a mobile phone, but in some cases they can’t read whether or not this is a payment button or a receiving button, right? How do you, and this is a bigger question that you as an EcoBank executive, is actually reflecting your own experience of someone that has seen this evolution over the last 20 years.

But also, I’m pretty sure you have visited a lot of countries in the continent. The challenges are not the same, right? Yes, indeed. How do you think that this last mile battle or the, let’s say, the conquer and even the opening up the opportunities of this last mile is going to take place? How do you make people that cannot read included in the payment space? Great question, Mattil.

I think that’s what you described is always in the back of our mind while we build our solutions for our customer. I think whatever we’re doing and as an EcoBank team, we are saying that everything we do, we are doing for the customer. So the customer needs, customer satisfaction is at the heart of everything we do.

So if you look at today where we operate, we operate in some of the toughest jurisdictions, as you can imagine. There could be a coup, there could be war happening, and this further states our vision and mission is really to power the economic growth of the continent by the virtual fact that we are there. As we build towards a digital solution, we are not forgetting that we have people who are possibly very far from where the bank is.

We have people who are possibly not able to read. So therefore, we have invested massively in our agency banking. So our agent becomes our representative to help these people to get on board to transact.

We also have our branches. We try at our best to be available, to be closer to the people. But at the same time, I always like to look at the bright side.

The continent is very young, 65% of the population is below the age of 20. I think there’s a great push that we know that these people are digitally born, digitally savvy. As we build our solution, we need to look at 10 years where we will be and 10 years where this population will be.

And we are hopeful that with the support of the mobile money, the telecom network, that the access to information, access to platform, access to data will become much more readily available at a much lower cost. So therefore, we are also building with the mindset that we are building for the future. So we are catering for both worlds.

But I would say that if you look at the future 5, 10 years from here, I think that the current people, the younger generation of the population will become now the, I would even say the pillar of the continent. And we are hopeful that they will be more financially knowledgeable, but it does not mean we do not continue to invest in terms of how we can support their growth. I know you know Ecobank quite well.

We’ve launched multiple projects, schools, accessibility to technology, the AI hubs. So we want to continuously invest and give back to the society to empower them. It is true that you actually made me think of an angle that it wasn’t crystal clear until this conversation, which is amazing.

Time is actually on Africa’s side, right? Because not only it is the youngest continent, the average age, I believe, is 19 years old. So it is true that today, the ones who are really, really financially excluded are maybe the elderly people in the villages, but maybe their kids or their grandkids will probably enable them by osmosis, right? So, and you’re actually right, the battle is actually not there. The challenge is how to empower the youngest generation, right? So the one that in five or six or 10 years are going to be fully empowered to use the financial services.

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So guys, I know decently well that, I know Jeremy Awori, the CEO of Echobank, tried very hard to have you, to hire you, and he finally succeeded. It wasn’t as easy as having a coffee and essay join. I will not unveil the details that I’m not supposed to unveil, but the stop boot here is that you’re a very typical banker, right, today.

You’re a one-year young banker, right, almost, actually a little over, a little over, a little over. And in your previous job, you and the company were very successful in building this new payment race. And I totally understand why Echobank brought this experience into the corporate world.

Now, it did not only brought an experience, but it also brings someone, and I’m putting words in your mouth, but you, you know, contradict me if you think I’m not putting the right ones, that came also with at least a very different mentality, not because there is any right or wrong mentality, but simply because the corporate doesn’t go at the right, you know, doesn’t have the same agility by construct, right? So how did it feel, you know, to, you know, cross this, you know, huge bridge, right, the profession, right? I think that everyone wants to know. Mateo, as you rightly put it, atypical is, I would say, the right word to describe it, right? I’m not coming from a traditional banking industry. Even as I joined Echobank, I always tell people, I am not a banker.

I’m a payment person. You can even call me a startup as you like, right? If you look at my 20 plus years experience in Africa, I have spent a lot of it in payments, fintech, startup, and sometimes pure play tech space, right? I love to build things from ground up, right? I have been deeply involved in building systems from scratch and payment networks, enterprise solutions for telcos, banks, and fintechs. Um, what makes the Echobank become a very interesting in terms of my shift is now I’m moving from selling the solution to running the engine on a massive and a pan-African scale, right? I always look at Echobank, it’s this giant that they have been strategically placed in the key markets, right? When you look at the footprint, we are second to none.

The second is quite far behind in terms of the footprint to us. Um, I don’t come again from the traditional banking products, compliance, and I really come with a mindset of a builder and agile and fintech, right? I want my business to be run like a startup. Um, my passion is still tech and fintech.

I’m sure you can, you know, since I joined, you can see some of the partnerships we have brought. Um, you know, Google is one of them, um, cause I mean, Google is Google, right? It’s the best tech company there is. We, we are also, this also demonstrates that our willingness, um, and focus to leverage on the best tech, best technology, um, to evolve, to leapfrog and to build the most robust and secure network for our customers.

Cause at the end of the day, we are a financial institution. We touch money, right? And we want our customer to feel safe. We can’t move billions of dollars when you do not have a robust and safe platform for our customers.

So I think, um, the journey has been very interesting. Um, you know, I brought the agility, like I mentioned that we will set up dedicated squads or labs, you know, and focus on building MVP. Traditionally large corporates, they want to do things perfect, right? And here we want to run, let’s get going.

Let’s get the MVP out in the markets. Let’s test, let’s try, let’s learn, then let’s move forward. Let’s make some mistakes, but learn from it very fast.

Let’s not take 10 years to build a solution that maybe the world has moved. So the combination of those two becomes very interesting. You could feel sometimes, of course, there’s questions to being asked.

There’s some tensions, but I look at it positively, right? And, you know, sometimes for me is, is, is, is it positive tension? Because now we are becoming a much more diverse group of people, people with different backgrounds. Um, I think that’s the beauty of it, right? Um, so educating people that, you know, it was good. What Ecobank has done was really good.

And now when we look at how the market is rapidly moving and at a speed that we’ve never seen before, right. Um, how do we cater for that? You know, so then we come together with, with their background, the corporate knowledge, you know, um, with the, now the startup mindset, how do we gel together? I think it’s very interesting, you know, rewarding at the same time. Absolutely.

And, uh, you, you remind me a little bit that even if there is no possible comparison, but, uh, uh, this, uh, group of rebels and misfits, uh, that are usually two words that are, uh, not very well accepted in the, in the corporate space, but, uh, it is almost like, uh, the corporate version of, uh, of a misfit, not because it doesn’t fit, but, uh, uh, you know, in this case, because she tries to bring a complimentary type of mentality, right. To the one that was already already in the bank, which is actually a nice segue, uh, of the next topic I want to talk about, because I know that, uh, uh, you have been building your team. You have been hiring a few people.

Uh, I believe there are a couple of, uh, uh, you probably keep, you will keep hiring for the next two to three years, but, uh, you know, go, go look, uh, into, into the Ecobank website because there are still a couple of, uh, open positions. But my question is more about, uh, the talent that you were able or not able to find and related to that, the whole capacity building, uh, aspect, uh, of, uh, the continent. Right.

Uh, I don’t think today that, uh, there are, uh, enough tool to be able to build the capacity at scale in the continent. We all know that we talked about it a lot, uh, you know, talk us through a little bit, your own experience in, in, you know, in hiring high skill people, right. Because, uh, these are people with experience.

You are, to me, you are an African talent because after 20 years, you clearly belong. You don’t have the same color of the majority of the people, but you are an African talent. It’s, it’s rare, right? Because, uh, this almost this generational, uh, gap hasn’t been filled yet with the right competencies.

What’s your vision. And even through your own experience in building your team, Sandra. I think capacity building is perhaps, um, the biggest strategic challenge and opportunity, especially in payments in the current context of payments industry.

Uh, the bottleneck is not capital. I just want to make that clear. It is really skilled engineers and product people who deeply understand the local context.

If you look at how our banking infrastructure has been built, right. It was built in the West, right. And they brought it here and we took it, use it, adapt it.

And, you know, there’s a saying that don’t break it. Don’t change it if it’s not broken, but unfortunately that’s our, the, the, the, how do I say the intrinsics of Africa is very different, right? If you look at, um, the credit card penetration across Africa is below 3%, right? In some countries, you are not allowed to have a credit card as simple as that. Like you mentioned this, this, uh, 30 plus countries we operate in a very, very different.

So therefore that just copy paste what has been working in the other side of the world here cannot work for us. And a lot of the talent, especially in payments in, in, in a general global view is they are mostly not here. Right.

And here, what we have is, um, bankers, bankers who have been in the banking industry who have been doing this, and they have that deep knowledge that we need to appreciate. But when you look at the fintechs, fintechs is new. It’s last, what, 10 years also, you know, has now influxed into Africa and young people believe that because of the inefficiency of the financial system, the birth of the fintech and the acceleration.

So therefore that we have a lot of young people. You and I, we talk about this as well. Founders mentality.

Oh, I think I can do this. I can do this much faster, but then somehow in a process, that’s the governance process, the corporate knowledge that they did not focus and the compliance, by the way, because when you are talking about financial technology, you are touching financial and you’re talking to money. So compliance is really fundamental and mandatory as you build a long term and sustainable, a scalable business.

So my, my experience has been look in my previous role that we grew from a three person to about 30 people in the span of two years during COVID. It was like crazy growth, right? Um, we, it took us long time to hire, but of course, you know, there’s the, for Ecobank, there’s, we are focused on really hiring local people, right? We want to empower and facilitate and grow our talents in Africa. So this is why we have, you know, projects ongoing with different partnerships with university graduates.

We put them into a program to, to give them the opportunity to get on boarded. Right. And we also want to work with you on your other projects to make sure that we can do this matching when it comes to capacity and talents.

We take that quite serious and we invest, right. And then, but for me, it’s also about creating a sticky environment. When you want to hire effectively, you have to be the destination for talent, right? Are you creating a narrative that you doing something impactful? You, as you know, a lot of people who are in Africa decides to make Africa home.

Um, some of them went abroad and came back is because they also want to have that impact in everything that they do. So want to make sure that we give them that opportunity with the impact statement, be working on products that truly matter for the future of Africans and our, you know, um, economic growth. But what I always tell startup funders is let’s not limit ourself.

When we are building a solution, we should not only build for Africa who says that our solution cannot be exported to the other side of the world and solve a problem. Because if you look at the Silicon valleys, right, when they are building, they are building for America and for the world, they don’t just think about, you know, I’m only building for this city, for this country, but when they think about it, it’s globally. And they don’t even know potentially the problem we have on ground in Africa, but they believe due to solve your problem.

So we should not try to limit ourself. Like when we built less beautiful globally, a solution, that’s how you can grow. Right.

So, yeah, the hiring has been, um, I would say quite challenging, especially because cross-border, um, remittance is a very complex and special skill set. You really need to have that, um, knowledge that, um, what does this mean when you fund in this corridor? How do you fund what currency? What’s the exchange rate? What’s the, what does the regulatory say? How do I do the reconciliation? How do I make sure my connection is seamless? There’s a lot of interesting details that I’m looking for. And we are really calling all the, um, talents in Africa, um, especially for to come and join us on this very exciting journey.

Right. And we’re happy to train and to coach because sometimes it’s also not possible to only find the experienced people. Right.

So that’s why we’re open to young people who are graduating, uh, who are in their first year jobs. And, you know, we want to grow with them and give them the opportunity to be part of this, you know, um, hopefully successful journey. Uh, I want to use the, the, the last minutes of this, of this podcast to allow you to like make a call, right.

For, or actually to explain a bit better. Uh, if I am not someone with an idea, because if I come here with the PowerPoint and no product, no traction, uh, you and your team won’t have time to listen. That’s for sure.

But there are today, uh, let’s say either grownups or, uh, new in like innovators or entrepreneurs with a solution that if they do their homework, right. And, uh, in what there are, there will never be enough coaching in how to explain an entrepreneur to tell a bank that, uh, you know, they have done their homework so that the banks can understand and not simply look at the PowerPoint. I guess that where I’m going is, uh, how Echobank is preparing the ground for, uh, entrepreneurs to be able to reinteract with the bank.

This is spot on part of what you are building. And, and I believe that you have a vision, right. On how Echobank can interact with this vibrant ecosystem.

At the end of the day, if you do capacity building, you do it to have more startups, uh, helping Echobank to achieve its mission. Right. 100%.

Um, I think start from the fund fundamentals, right. As I mentioned to you, when we were interacting, the fact that we are in 30 plus countries in Africa, we are really well positioned to facilitate. And I think for me, it’s always about collaboration and partnership.

And I always say that if fintechs are doing this better than us, I would much prefer let them do reach a segment of the customer we today cannot reach. Let’s facilitate that. Let’s not look at them as competition.

Let’s be competition. Why not? Right. So right now, that’s why my, my biggest focus is building the platform because without the platform, it would be very difficult for this, uh, fintechs to integrate to us.

Right. You know, that’s why we are building an API first, you know, platform, everything will be API based. You know, it would be easy to use because we brought Google to come in to help us.

So that’s the first second is to make sure that we are building a robust framework to, to work with this startups. I think one of the things, the missing link, um, in, in terms of how banks were working with, uh, startups and the fintechs was really, there was no robust framework. What does this mean when this company wants to do this with us? What are the steps? What are the, how does they have to go through? Can we streamline this so that the interface with one department, not with 10 different departments.

Right. So I think that that framework is important. And number three, I think it’s very important.

And we should talk about is, is commercial, is the commercial viable for the fintech and for us? Because after all, we are all trying to do this because we are not, we are profit making company as much as we want to, you know, facilitate empower. We are here. We also have obligations to our shareholders.

So I think the commercial viability is very important. That needs to make sense for all the parties. So those are three things that today we are working tirelessly internally to make sure that we build that.

Then we will open up the door for the fintechs. And of course we cannot do this alone without a regulatory, um, with a, without the regulatory environment that will allow us, for instance, you know, what Ghana and Rwanda have done, you know, the passporting of the license is super important, right? We need to look at why EU is EU is because it’s a one common market. You can operate in France and you can operate in Germany.

Right. So today, if we could also do that, that means we’re enlarging our ecosystem. So for me, it’s, it’s, um, work underway.

And that’s why it’s as part of our GTR strategy and transformation, you know, um, building the foundation, the infrastructure is really cool. You know, as everything that we’re building today to make sure we are giving the interface is becomes delightful, whether it’s to a business, whether it’s to a fintech, whether it’s to the end consumer. Sandra, thank you very much for the time that you have given us.

I know that your schedule is far from being easy, easy to manage. And by the way, shout out to Rose. She, she, she will listen to this show for sure.

And, you know, for, for helping us getting Santa to do a show. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. It was lovely spending this time with you. I’m looking forward, you know, to our next session.

Absolutely. I was actually about to say that I’m looking forward to our next coffee session in Nairobi. It’s, uh, it’s becoming a tradition every quarter or so.

And guys that was Breaking Banks Africa episode number 10, and it’s a wrap. That’s it for another week of the world’s number one fintech podcast and radio show Breaking Banks. This episode was produced by a U S based production team, including producer, Elizabeth Severance, audio engineer, Kevin Hirsham.

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